Bodkin
· 12 October 2004
· Chapter 17: Part Two: The Tale of Those who Loved Tinuviel
Oh good, I've been looking forward to more of this. Luthien, Beren and Daeron - there's something about their story that makes me a bit uncomfortable. You know, it's the sort of thing that works as a legend in the distant past, but close up it's . . . well, uncomfortable is the best word I can think of at half past five in the morning.
And it must be most bizarre still to be there in later ages, when people are singing the lays of ancient legends - and you knew these people as cousins and friends, kings and heroes. It'd be like going to school with King Arthur.
Author's reply
Thanks for the review, Bodkin. There's something about the Beren + Luthien story that makes me uncomfortable too. I feel really sorry for Thingol and Daeron, and Beren + Luthien don't seem to do anything but fall into traps and cause disaster to everyone they come across. It feels a bit disrespectful to Tolkien not to like it, since it was his favourite, but I don't.
As a matter of fact, I don't like it so much that having started to tell it, I find I can't face going on. Sad though it is, I've had a sudden rethink and decided that it would be better to end this story at the end of chapter 16, then maybe start a new one when the Silmaril arrives in Doriath. I thought I'd be able to handle the Beren/Luthien story as long as I wrote it from Thingol's pov, but I find I can't after all.
I am sorry to mislead you like that, but I simply don't think I can take any more romance!
elliska
· 12 October 2004
· Chapter 17: Part Two: The Tale of Those who Loved Tinuviel
Oh good. I didn't have to wait long for this to continue since I only recently finished reading the first part. The second part looks like it is going to have a great deal of fodder for interesting complications and again the descriptions are great. I know very little about Luthien. It has been a year since I last read that story. Poor Daeron. I am truly looking forward to your updates.
Author's reply
Many thanks for the review, Elliska! Alas, now I have to apologise to you for misleading you. I started this part of the story in high spirits, with a proper plot plan (8-10 chapters long) and everything. But now I simply can't face going on with it. My heart revolts from it with nausea. So I think that, after all, there isn't going to be any more of Oak and Willow. Though there *may* be a sequel in the dim future in which I finally get C+G hitched.
I can't take any more of it. And the sight of my synopsis - all 20 unwritten chapters of it - is more than I can bear. I'm sorry. The enjoyment has well and truely gone out of it for me, and I think I'd rather quit while I'm ahead than leave it half way through another major part. At least Chapter 16 was some sort of resolution; since he proposed and she said yes. I guess that will have to do.
Sorry!
daw the minstrel
· 12 October 2004
· Chapter 17: Part Two: The Tale of Those who Loved Tinuviel
That's a clever explanation for Thingol's ban, Marnie. Well done.
Author's reply
Thanks, Daw! It struck me that if that was what he dreamed of then not only would it explain the ban, but it would also explain the way he treated Beren.
Sadly, having started the story I don't think I can face finishing it, so this may be all there is. Sorry!
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 2
What a phenomenal description. I have not seen this topic done anywhere and this chapter captures it so perfectly. Awesome!
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 1: Part One: The Tale of Celeborn and Galadriel
I reviewed the first two chapters on Open Scrolls but since I enjoyed this so much, I will do it here too. As I said, I love your history of writing here. I am a former language teacher and this is right up my ally.
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 16
I have always thought the edict of Elu Thingol was very powerful symbolically. Language is a very intimate thing and being forced to abandon your own language is a very intense loss of identity. I love the way you have used this here.
I see this is the last chapter posted at the moment. I will be waiting for more. This was spectacular!
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 15
They bowed in reverence to Bronwë the Castellan as they passed him, and there seemed no falseness in it, but she felt for the first time that she understood Celeborn's words to her brothers in Doriath. 'The children of the royal line of Doriath are acknowledged as the rightful rulers of all Ennor.'
It was a quiet power, unobtrusive. Less like the clear and visible authority of a king, and more ...organic, like the scarce to be traced lines of influence within a large, contented family. And Nerwen, to whom the threads and interweaving of power were an absorbing interest, discovered something new to be intrigued about in her lover. How naturally he handled power, and how restrained was his use of it; subtle, almost invisible. What havoc he could have achieved if he had chosen to inflame, rather than to soothe! How much Noldor glory was built upon the menial labour of their Sindar subjects - who were in their hearts good children of Thingol? No wonder he had said even their own realms existed by Sindar forbearance.
Absolutely awesome! I love this description.
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 14
What timing for that little piece of news. I should have seen it coming but I did not. Poor Celeborn and Galadriel. That was very tense.
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 13
"You could have picked a better way than this to announce your intentions toward our sister." This interaction was priceless. Loved it!
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 12
The angst in this chapter is incredible. Galadriel's reaction when Celeborn would not wipe away her tears or touch her so as not to push her right down to when she thought of how she was tainted and hesitated to to accept him...too perfect. This is so wonderfully done. I must rush to the next chapter.
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 11
God this is great! Again, Galadriel's contemplation of everything that happened was so powerful. And then the image of Galadriel looking at a sleeping Celeborn just had me breathless. And when he woke up! I can't take time to write anymore. I want to get on to the next chapter.
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 10
I am speechless over this one. Galadriel's reaction and the prejudices of the Noldor/Sindar are perfectly depicted. What a tense chapter. Poor Celeborn!
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 9
Excellent! Boy, Luthien misspoke, didn't she? Galadriel's reaction was perfect. And I loved the way you handled Melian's questioning of Galadriel.
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 8
Now that is one heck of a family history for Celeborn. I admit I know little about his family save their names. Is their history in this chapter canon or did you create it? Either way, it is a powerful backdrop for Galadriel's romance with Celeborn.
Author's reply
Elliska! What a phenominal thing to do - to leave me a review of each chapter. Thank you so much! It was lovely to get up this morning and find my inbox full of 16 reviews. A real treat :)
Inglor asked me if I would put this on Open Scrolls, so I did, but I didn't expect it to generate such interest. It was worthwhile entirely to know that you read it and liked it.
As far as Celeborn's family history goes, I'm afraid it's all made up by me. I wondered why Elmo, Galadhon and Galathil should be nothing more than names, and very obscure names, in the HoME volumes. Why hadn't they *done anything* during the First Age at all? Why had obscure nobody Oropher established a kingdom, on the grounds of being from Doriath, while Elu Thingol's own brother is never heard of again?
The easiest explanation I could come up with was that they didn't do anything because they weren't there any more: They had been lost to Doriath before the histories of that time began. Then I just had to think up some way of removing them which didn't involve them all dying together in a hideous carting accident or something ;)
So it was canon inspired, in a way - just a very negative way!
Many thanks again for so many lovely reviews,
Marnie :-)
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 7
Wow! That was an incredible chapter. I started out thinking how much I liked Galadriel's contemplation of the meaning of the new name and her comparison of Celeborn and Feanor and I thought I'd comment on that in the review. Well, I loved that but then I got to the end with the fishing description. Fantastic reaction/flashback for Galadriel. Really powerful.
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 6
Great dialogue but the 'assault the enemy' metaphor that you played with at the end was the best. Loved it.
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 5
Spectacular debate between Celeborn and Galadriel.
But the little gem I liked the best was this revelation: In the dimness of night the colours the Noldor valued so highly would be stripped away, but these Sindar clothes of many shades and textures would become a delight of half-seen richness; a tease and suggestion of beauty, like a half heard melody that enchants because it cannot be grasped. Because their taste has been formed in millennia of darkness.
It is little details like this that make a story rich. I love it.
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 4
I love the interchange between Celeborn and Angrod. The play with language and names was excellent. Angrod's haughtiness and Celeborn's reaction to it were perfect. And I like the way you portrayed Melian's reaction to them.
elliska
· 10 October 2004
· Chapter 3
"Ah, Lady," Thingol said, raising the linked hands to his lips, "You of all people should know that the Quendi value freedom over safety. I will not ask the Green-kindred to abandon their lands. Not while I have strength to defend them."
"But our strength declines daily," Celeborn broke in. Since the formal audience was over he left his place at the king's left hand to sit on the steps of the dais. "Unless we can somehow learn to breed like orcs, we will soon by overwhelmed by sheer numbers."
"You have a foul mouth, nephew." Grief at the knowledge that the words were true did not prevent Thingol from a bitter smile at the way it had been put, "And clear sight."
Love this interchange. Thingol's statement is exactly right for the way I think elves would feel about this and Celeborn hits the nail on the head with the problem.
I am really glad I found this story here on SoA. I prefer reading stuff here.
Sphinx
· 4 May 2004
· Chapter 16
You know, there are a couple of things that come to my mind whenever I read anything of yours, this story in particular. These are –
a)You know canon very well.
b) You know canon VERY well.
c) YOU KNOW CANON VERY WELL.
So well that you’re able to make your characters seem believable in situations that are not described fully in the book. *bows* Marnie, you rule.
And I loved Nerwen here. I did. A definite transition to Galadriel, along with the involuntary humility – it made her seem so real. Definitely not fairy godmother!
Curufin was as I expected. *g* And the Rilmiriel scene was a classic. It had everything, from high drama to quiet acceptance, from gnashing teeth to Celeborn’s icy patience. Wow.
And Celeborn….
I should stop now, and just fall at your feet. Yessssss, we should.
*prodprodprodprod*
Author's reply
LOL, Sphinx! Thanks very much, but I don't think I deserve it - I'm always coming across annoying bits of canon which just get in my way and spoil things, because I ought to have thought of them earlier.
Curufin was a fun sort of chap to have around, in a 'love to hate him' sort of way :) Rilmiriel insisted on having her part enlarged - it wouldn't surprise me if she starts nagging me for her own series (without result, of course.) And even I found Galadriel quite nice in this chapter - I guess it was the contrast with her other relatives ;)
Prodding will get you no where I'm afraid. This week will be taken up beta-reading other people's stories, and next week I've promised to do a chapter of 'Unforsaken.' Maybe the week after :)
Thanks again,
Marnie :-)
Bejai
· 3 May 2004
· Chapter 16
Hi Marnie!
Sorry I'm late with the review. Had a final this morning (so was up studying very, very A.M.,) then went home and died for the afternoon. I read this great chapter after the test, but was too fuzzy to say anything coherent about it. So I thought I'd give it a try now.
You say you had troubles with this chapter? Certainly doesn't show. Loved the description of Celeborn. Melted right into a puddle, I did. And looking like a Teleri! I loved how there was this undercurrent in the Noldor of ... almost blame for the fact that he looks like them. Their guilt talking, there.
And I was floored at how you did the Quenya/Sindar scene. Jaw-dropping stuff there. The tension! I loved how you made a minor character the focus of that attention. Seemed perfect! Because they are the people who are going to make this work. I can't help but think that if she hadn't stood up and taken the heat, Elu's edict would have failed. Wow. Just a crackling scene.
And Fingolfin was very reasonable, I thought. Especially compared to Curufin. I didn't expect to like Fingolfin. I'm not sure I "liked" him, but I do respect him. A multilayered and fair look at an interesting character, despite your preferences :)
The reunion was great! One of the toughest things to do with these two is figure out what the heck they say to one another after they get back from one of their many partings -- that was my trouble in DF. But you did it wonderfully. And this was the first parting, wasn't it? Kinda sets up the precedent. Badness ensues, Galadriel leaves, time passes, they manage to find their way back together. And there is always forgiveness and acceptance. That right there is how they manage to make this thing work. They are powerful, willful people; if they decided to hold a grudge, I think it would destroy them both.
Loved Fingon erupting out of his chair when Galadriel mentioned the "B" word. And circling like wolves! Apt.
Celeborn really doesn't fit into that controlled little world. You wrote one throw-away line, about Celeborn frowning at the sound of the metalic harp, that was just perfect. But Galadriel is realizing that she doesn't belong in this world either. And she has this "crazy little idea" and she doesn't deserve him. A little editorializing, there ;)
And now I'm rambling. Coherence apparently wasn't something I could get a hold of this evening after all. Suffice it so say that this was a wonderful chapter, and a welcome respite from the Real Life blather that preceeded it.
Author's reply
Thanks for such a great review Bejai! Particularly if you're sparing mental effort in the middle of Finals - I'm flattered :) Yes, this chapter was pure and simple work with no inspiration, but every time I think 'I hate this story, I think I'll give it up' I get a review like this which makes me think it's worthwhile after all.
I agree that the whole language ban would have failed totally if the ordinary Sindar in the Noldor realms hadn't been willing to put it into practice. Rilmiriel was there to demonstrate the kind of heroism of that. Canonically, of course, there's no mention of Celeborn having anything to do with it, so I wanted to show that it would have happened without him - it was a grassroots thing.
I'm glad you liked Fingolfin, or at least found him kingly. I may not like the Noldor, but I wouldn't like that to lead me down the road of 'Noldor=evil' and 'Sindar=good' Feel free to prod me if it looks like I'm doing that :)
Funny, isn't it, that C+G's relationship does look like a series of ruins followed by rebuilding. You could say 'well, that's inevitable in a 7000 year marriage' or you could say 'that's the effect of the Doom of Mandos' and maybe you'd be right either way. But this certainly won't be the last crisis, even in *this* fic ;)
The unworthiness thing was me throwing a bit of my own experience in there - I feel very unworthy of my husband, but then he feels very unworthy of me, with the result that we're both constantly marvelling at our good luck. It just seemed like a good modle to me (as well as being the only one I know.)
Anyway, that was probably too much information! Thanks again, and hope the Finals go well, and are soon over.
Marnie :-)
Bodkin
· 3 May 2004
· Chapter 16
Gandalf! Absolutely no way! It takes a person with enormous strength and flexibility to deal with being seen as second fiddle to someone like Galadriel - and they both know that, whatever anyone else might think, they are equally important to their relationship. Otherwise there would have been no possibility of them surviving their partnership for x thousand years. And can you imagine pairing her with Oropher or any of the others! They'd make mincemeat of each other.
(Not that I'm obsessive.)
Author's reply
LOL! Hm, but are you obsessive enough to write a 30 chapter epic to prove it ;) ?
If so... can I read it?
Marnie :-)
Bodkin
· 3 May 2004
· Chapter 16
I just loved this - your Galadriel and Celeborn are just made for each other. He is the only person who could cope with her - and from whom she could accept the care. The characterisation is great all round, plus humour and telling observations and . . .
Please keep yourself firmly nailed to the computer - I want to know what comes next!
Author's reply
Thanks, Bodkin! If I've made it seem convincing that they were made for each other, then I've done what I set out to do, which was to answer the question (which I've seen so often in the fandom) 'What does she see in *him*?' 'How come Galadriel is married to such a loser?' 'She should have someone better, like Gandalf...' (EW!)
I think it must take a pretty special bloke to put up with her! And if you think I've shown that, then I'm made up :) Thanks!
Marnie :-)
PS, what comes next is something completely different...
Coriel
· 2 May 2004
· Chapter 16
Whee!! I love this!
So much good and thick tension in this chapter, and a big round of applause for Celeborn and his incredible stand in the face of the whole Noldorin court! Now you’ve officially done it; I think I like him just as much as I do Thranduil. :)
"Elu's kindred all bore a striking family resemblance . . . with the honed, bladelike beauty of his house . . ." I’m sure glad they’re all related!
"You do not understand Quenya? . . . None of them can, you know. . . ."
Ooo! As it happens I was considering a scene of this type for good ol’ Oropherion on Balar, but knowing him you can guess he handled it with twice the venom. Celeborn’s sheer self-control is impressive enough as it is. And what a couple of clods those Fëanorionath are.
Three cheers for Rilmiriel! A hairy moment, but she did Sindarindom proud. "Please have someone bring the Lord Curufin a drink, 'ere the world ends." I can almost hear that little underlying twinge of exasperated sarcasm there! Let’s see, what was it they said in that movie Life Is Beautiful . . . "Silence is the most powerful cry."
Well, in certain situations, anyway.
"With all the Lords of Arda at your feet you choose this arrogant, illiterate moriquende?" *Ack!* "You do know they are baying for his blood out there?" Oh, let them! They’ll bark, but I’ll bet they don’t dare bite him. "There are those saying Thingol should be taught a lesson, this dark elf of yours should be taught who the true rulers of Ennor are."
*!!ACK!!* . . . [too incensed to make suitable comment] . . .
"Celeborn turned, the laughter still in his eyes. "Come home," he said."
Aw, how sweet! Here she expects to get the "see ya, wouldn’t wanna be ya," and he turns around and says something so casually cute as that, almost like talking to a truant teenager. I just love his forwardness. He says what he means and means what he says.
"I do not wonder you wanted to leave! Here, we would build it anew - but stronger. If there exists the will to try again, even ruin does not have to be the end. It can precede a new beginning."
Ah, the contrasts you draw between Aman and Ennor are so TRUE! Something I’ve always known, but never quite put my finger on.
"they would say 'we shall never make its like again!' And the river would be left bridgeless so that all could remember what had been lost."
Although, I’ve felt that way before when the depths of cyberspace choose to swallow a whole half-chapter without a trace. . . . ^_^
Good stuff, good stuff. THIS is the kind of thing I write, and so is also what I relate to and would most like to read. Lots of depth and introspection, new and interesting facets of the situation revealed at every corner. Mae carnen, mae pennen!
Author's reply
Thanks for another fabulous review, Coriel! And I'm positively over the moon that Celeborn has joined Thranduil on your 'top elf' list. As you know, Thranduil is my second favourite, for much the same reason - he can be bolshy, he doesn't take any nonsense, and he's as Sindar as they come ;) I would love to see the scene where Thranduil lets rip on Balar. Celeborn was somewhat constrained at this point, and would probably have preferred to be slightly more proactive, but he had to set an example.
I'm glad you thought his straightforward talk was cute; I like him very much because he's the one elflord in LotR who very obviously says what he thinks. Even if it's ugly, at least you know you're getting something honest, and with all the politics in her own family, I'm sure that's one of the things Galadriel values about him. And the whole business of the curse, and everything she begins ending in ruin... he *had* to have given that some serious thought before marrying her, and it seemed to me that he might have come up with the idea that it wasn't a curse at all; the Valar had just been explaining to the Noldor what it was like in Ennor. They just *thought* it was a curse...
You're right, of course, we all write what we want to read, and it's a joy to find it in others (partially because it spares us the work of doing it ourselves.) That's why I am very relaxed about having to do justice to Thranduil - I know that I can rely on you to do that.
Thanks again!
Marnie :-)
Morwen Tindomerel
· 2 May 2004
· Chapter 16
Yeah! You go, Celeborn!! Curufin is waaaaay out of his class - this is an Elf accustomed to fighting nasty creatures, *he* won't be cowed!!! :D
Glads is *not* good enough for him, happily she seems to have some inkling of this.
Love that comment about the Amanyar, if something's broken they stand around and wail that they'll never make the like again - so true! We should start the Noldor un-fanclub for Sinda and Dunedain lovers who are sick of watching the haughty Amanyar look down their noses at mere moriquendi and and even merer 'aftercomers' while leading them to disaster.
Interesting about C's other names, where'd you find that information?
Author's reply
LOL! What you don't see is Curufin following Celeborn around afterwards, making insulting remarks about his mother in Quenya with the knowledge that he can't do anything about it :D Somehow that particular SoF seems just petty enough to do that kind of thing.
I would definately join an un-fanclub for the Noldor. We could burn Feanor in effigy on Bonfire Night!
Celeborn's other names were in 'The Treason of Isengard' - which is the volume of HoME with the draft versions of the Fellowship of the Ring. They're about as canonical as 'Inglor' as an alternative name for Finrod, but what the heck, I just liked the idea.
Thanks for the review!
Marnie :-)