Thain by Lindelea
Lyta Padfoot · 26 July 2004 · Chapter 6: Thain: Midnight Whispers
Poor Pimpernel. I imagine Ferdi is even more embarassed to speak in front of her than all the other Tooks combined. Pippin was very sweet in this chapter, nice to see him protective of Nell and Ferdi.
Author's reply
Very incisive comment, one I hadn't even thought about (yet) but would have to be true.
Bodkin · 26 July 2004 · Chapter 6: Thain: Midnight Whispers
Not a paragon of sensitivity is he, old Paladin. Poor Pimpernel is clearly already fond of Ferdi - and he's trying to marry her off to her advantage. I imagine that if Ferdi had extensive lands and loads of money, his elective mutism would become an interestingly eccentric life choice rather than something that prove he was half-witted. Pippin is quite sweet here - lazy, self-centred, selfish, but sweet. (Typical teenager.)
Author's reply
LOL, I'd agree over the "typical teen" comment but for the fact that my own typical teen would probably take offense... For a small defense of Paladin, see the review reply to Connie (posted at SoA for the same chapter you just reviewed). ...but you're right about "faults" being changed to charming eccentricities depending on one's economic status. Hadn't even thought of that.
FantasyFan · 26 July 2004 · Chapter 6: Thain: Midnight Whispers
Pip's a typical thoughtless teen here - so inwardly focused in his concerns. He's jealous of his Smials cousins' idleness now - I think of Farry's story, and how slow Pip was to realize the mischief his Smial-cousins' idleness led to. Paladin's right in wanting his son to learn self-discipline, but there's a fine line between discipline and control, and Paladin and Pip will teeter on that line for a long time. It's typical that the conversation with Nell starts with childish pique over bedtime, and an attempt to raid the pantry. There's not a shred of guilt over getting his sister to do his chores, or even over getting caught at it. But childish thinking is soon to be replaced with a new awareness of consequences, I think. And despite his immaturity, Pip's compassion for Nell is firmly in place. How true it is that hobbits love each other deeply, especially family. I'm glad that Pip will eventually get to play his part in bringing Nell the long-delayed fulfilment of her hopes. It's quite interesting, how this story is weaving two very different threads together. I'm eager to see what kind of finished tapestry you've got planned.
Author's reply
Well, Pip had quite a bit of fun with his idle cousin, not realising the harm it did until his son's troubles showed them to him in a new light. It is fun to contemplate that Pippin and Odo, working together, finally get Nell and Ferdi's relationship where it belongs. I'm eager to see the finished tapestry too! I confess the outline for this story is the sketchiest I've ever worked from, and chapter titles are giving me fits! (It just would not do to title the chapters identically, too confusing, but... still thinking about how to do this.) Thanks for reviewing.
Bodkin · 18 July 2004 · Chapter 5: Thorn: Midnight Summons
Loved the spookiness with the idea of closing the shutters and keeping the smial dark - nervous anticipation. Poor Bucca, left responsible for so many. Lucky Bucca with his precious new little one. Look forward to learning more - and developing the link between then / now.
Author's reply
Yes, and Bucca cannot even imagine that he holds a future Thain of the Shire in his arms... Thanks!
Connie · 18 July 2004 · Chapter 5: Thorn: Midnight Summons
Oh, this is getting interesting. Now, though, I'm getting curious about so many little odd things. One that is niggling at me is the family names. How did they get from where they were in Bucca's time to where they are at the time of the Quest. Just a little question. Not that I'm expecting an explanation, and, who knows, if I pay close attention I may actually find out in the course of your story. If I have learned anything from reading your writing, it is to be patient. You almost always explain everything by the end. Thanks. Connie.
Author's reply
Yep, I almost always explain everything by the end, except when I drop a stitch while knitting a story together. That's when I count on the alert reader to let me know there's a loose end sticking out. Of course, In "Pearl" there was a deliberate loose end. But then that was to allow a sequel. Thanks!
Lyta Padfoot · 18 July 2004 · Chapter 5: Thorn: Midnight Summons
Bucca and his son were very sweet. I'm curious as to why the Thorn was needed; I suspect it relates to the hobbits who went off to fight. Poor Bucca, it must be terrible to wait and wait for his twin only to learn that the waiting was in vain and that his brother is dead.
Author's reply
Thanks for commenting. Can't answer but to say all will be clearer in chapters soon to come.
Bodkin · 13 July 2004 · Chapter 4: Thain: Day of Reckoning
Pippin is such a typical youngest - willing to let everyone else do everything for him while he flutters his eyelashes and pouts. I don't blame Paladin for wanting to make him take some responsibility. Interested to see how this develops!
Author's reply
LOL, indeed he is! Amazing how that birth-order thing works.
Lyta Padfoot · 11 July 2004 · Chapter 4: Thain: Day of Reckoning
Paladin's anger is reflected in his children. Pimpernel, Pervinca, and Pippin are demonstrating classic signs of being in a troubled home. Pimpernel tries to protect, Pervinca escapes via books, Pippin is reckless. Whatever Paladin is planning, it won't be a good thing. Somehow I think it involves the Great Smials as that is the location of the stables he and Ferdi (nearly) burn down. Interesting that I thought of Paladin in my teaching class this summer. My instructor told us that first year teachers tend to reach a crisis point (stage two: surviving the teaching experience) where they 'teach as they were taught'. Paladin under pressure is parenting as he was parented, regardless of how he himself feels about how his father treated him. Its not working, but all he knows how to respond is to escalate.
Author's reply
Anger is worse than a virus, very infectious. Actually, Paladin is planning a good thing and if he'd been able to stick with it--as in circumstances not forcing his hand--things might have turned out differently. (It is so difficult to write when I keep bumping up against a future that's already written!) Hope that's not a spoiler, but then you know already, I think, that it's the consequences of his becoming Thain that ruin Paladin's chances for a happy family life. When his dream dies and he shoulders his responsibility, he cannot rise above the crushing weight of the burden thrust upon him. (Thankfully Pippin, in the identical circumstance later in his own life, is able to rise and not be crushed.) Classic observation you made there. How many times do we vow we won't do what our parents did, or say what they said, and later find their words coming out of our own mouths? Thanks for commenting.
Beruthiel · 11 July 2004 · Chapter 4: Thain: Day of Reckoning
Can't help feeling sorry for Pippin here, wondering what's going to happen. He may have deserved that rebuke, but I get the feeling there's worse coming. Interesting to see that Pip isn't the only one Paladin is less than pleased with, though he seems to get most of his father's ire. So Pervinca likes to bury her nose in books, does she? I just realized I know nothing at all about her. She barely gets mentioned in your other stories (Pearl too, for that matter). I know she marries Meliloc Brandybuck in 1440 (55 years old by then), and that's about it. What was she up to before then? (Just something to keep in mind for future stories.) It looks like this story is going to be quite angsty (yay! I love angst!). The family could get rather dysfunctional. I'm anxious to see how the worsening Pip-Paladin problems are going to affect the others. (Never really thought about that myself, for some reason.) This is looking to be a superb story, but I wish you'd update faster.
Author's reply
I do appreciate the encouragement. Well, there's better and worse coming, just as in real life. Pervinca as I've imagined her is a dreamer with a mercurial temper. I know someone very like her IRL... She marries late in life, 'tis true, but Meliloc is her "match" and perfectly suited to weather her moods and... but I'm out of time. Dana has asked me a couple of times to write about Pervinca. We'll see. Well, considering that Paladin and Pippin are not on speaking terms before Paladin's death, yes, they do get rather dysfunctional. Thanks!
Connie · 11 July 2004 · Chapter 4: Thain: Day of Reckoning
Oh, that was a hard chapter to read, at least for me. I know children need responsibiilities, and that they need descipline when they don't do as they're told; but it was still really hard to sit through Paladin's rebuke of his children. I can see that this could devolve into a very sad and disfunctiional family. All of the children seem like basicly good kids, and maybe they need love maore than a parent's constant anger and displeasure with everything they do. I need to shut up now. I have a bad habit of being very opinionated about kids, and how they're raised. Connie.
Author's reply
Well, I think they need consistency along with that love. Alternate spoiling and scolding don't work well. My goodness, it is difficult to write this story, if only to show a logical progression from Paladin-loving father to Paladin-unsympathetic Thain. It's a challenge, and challenges can keep me going when I don't feel like writing at all, but still... People do change over time. The Greeks were famous for their tragedies, usually based upon a character flaw, and the ending inevitable despite the character's best intentions. I have forced that same dynamic to be in effect for this story, with the conditions set forth in earlier stories, and am not completely happy about it. Go figure. Still, am going to try to pull the whole "fanon" together with this fill-in of the missing link. Yikes. Hope it doesn't finish me!
Connie · 9 July 2004 · Chapter 3: Thorn: No News is... No News
I'm still playing chatch-up on all the reading I missed. I like the changes to chapter one. I'm curious to see how the history chapters and the more current story weave together. I know there's going to be a lot of connection. You don't write anything without a purpose. Connie.
Author's reply
Thanks for reviewing. Finally got the next "Bucca" chapter hammered out, complete with computer crash just after completing it, and some careful reconstruction. Hope it suits.
Bodkin · 7 July 2004 · Chapter 3: Thorn: No News is... No News
Poor Bucca, left without his twin, supporting all the rest of his family. I love the parts that follow on from Shire: the Beginnings. It's always hard on those who are left behind in the aftermath of war.
Author's reply
I can only imagine what it must be like for Bucca, having known twins but not being one myself. It is fun to weave bits of "Shire" into this story. Thanks!
Lyta Padfoot · 7 July 2004 · Chapter 3: Thorn: No News is... No News
Poor Bucca, Primrose and little ones. Tokka is dead and they don't yet know it. Interesting that Bucca's father is known as 'the Thorn'. I'm curious to see how that morphs into the Thain. I'm loving the echoes of 'Shire' in this story.
Author's reply
Thanks for reviewing. Am hoping it does not stretch the limits of credulity to put forth somehow that "Thain" is a plural sort of form of "Thorn". Now how to work it into the text...
Lyta Padfoot · 17 June 2004 · Chapter 2: Thain: Taking Prisoners
Interesting that you've achieved such a clear picture of the state of Paladin and Pippin's relationship without having them meet in this chapter! Paladin appears to expect Pippin to behave in a certain way and is angry when his son fulfills his expectations. Attempts at behaving are not probably given positive reinforcement and Pippin comes to see his father expectations as too high - so why bother? Its a sad situation for Paladin, on some level he has to know he isn't doing the right thing but that knowledge only makes him angrier.
Author's reply
I'm sorry to say that their relationship began to sour a few years ago, when Paladin was caught in Mistress Lalia's trap because Pippin's childish actions opened the way for the Mistress to accuse Paladin of disloyalty. He tries to crack down on Pippin's behavior; mother and sisters think he's being unusually harsh, and so they are more lenient, Pippin acts out more, and Paladin cracks down harder, etc. It is a sad situation, as you said.
Connie · 17 June 2004 · Chapter 2: Thain: Taking Prisoners
I can see there is going to be a lot of head butting between Pippin and his father in this story. I try not to think too baddly of him, but I think he tries too hard to make his son over in his own image. I see a lot of stress coming. Connie.
Author's reply
There is a lot of stress. It's not all Paladin's fault, nor is it all Pippin's, though each of them have a share of the blame. A lot of it can be chalked up to a society that is heavily bound in tradition and expectation, which fits the hints Tolkien provided about Shire-folk and life in the Shire. Sigh.
FantasyFan · 17 June 2004 · Chapter 2: Thain: Taking Prisoners
Well, Pip is a thoroughly disruputable scoundrel, isn't he? Why, he reminds me of my youngest! Not that Raven ever has stolen a plate of gingerhobbits, but she has been known to wheedle her older brothers into finishing her chores. But Pip sounds a bit more spoiled than Raven, who really does have a good head on her shoulders. It sounds like this story will feature Pippin getting into more than a little trouble. Good thing we know it all turns out well in the end. I'll register my vote on your latest poll here. I think that for the time periods that you are writing in right now, in Starfire and here in Thain, that we are not likely to avoid the Ferdi-angst no matter what. Ferdi's worst time fast approaching, and he's not too sure of himself even in the time of Starfire. With all you've already written of him, you can't avoid stressing him out a little in these stories. But, I think it is worth considering whether some other hobbits need to get a little focus as well. Ferdi has had so much happen to him, and has come out of such terrible trials so many times, that he's almost a super-hobbit now. And that's not bad - we love him for all of it. There are few who can write a hobbit OC as strongly and completely as you do. And the 'supporting hobbits' like Rosemary and Tolly have each gotten a chance for development, here and there, but I'd like to see more. Not necessarily angst, although I understand that there has to be conflict and resolution to keep a story interesting. I would dearly love to see more of your stories focusing on the wonderful strength of the ladies of the Tookland, and it would be great to hear more of the hobbits of Ithilien - the story of Forget-me-not and Frodovar has been mentioned, and it's and example of the type of thing I'd love to see it. Just my humble opinion, all of it, and I will love and avidly devour anything you choose to write. FF
Author's reply
Belated thanks for the food for thought you provided here and in so many other reviews. Over the years, you always helped me to see my characters more clearly and highlighted my blind spots and assumptions that cropped up here and there, and the stories became stronger because of your feedback. Best wishes to you and yours.
Beruthiel · 17 June 2004 · Chapter 2: Thain: Taking Prisoners
I've just been reading your later stories, and I barely recognized Pippin here. I'd forgotten how irresponsible he was in his youth! Can't wait for more.
Author's reply
Ah, yes. It's difficult to write about character growth if a character starts out sounding too good. Or maybe "too good to be true"? Thanks!
Meldewen Ilce · 17 June 2004 · Chapter 1: Thorn: They'd Not Heard of the King
All right, Lindelea, I have really hoped you'd start this story soon as I want to know how Paladin went from being the loving father he was in say "Pearl" to what he is later like in "Jewels"! I know I came to realize at least part of what happened to him during the course of reading "Pearl" and it was something Pearl said that just made me go "Ah-ha! That's what happened to him!" I think a great deal of his problem was having to take up being Thain instead of remaining at the farm he loved so much! Anyway, I can't wait for his story and the other story looks great too! Though I shudder at the thought of the dugeons of Angmar - heck with anything to do with the Witch-King of Angmar! Please DO update soon!
Author's reply
I updated. Always happy to oblige. Still pondering the angst-sequence we talked about, so don't know if the next "Pippin update" will be delayed while I work it out, or if I'll just flip a coin in the end. Ferdi? not-Ferdi? You were right about what happened to Paladin. Very astute reading. Thanks for commenting. Author Reply: BTW, I know I answered this already, but have some recent updates... Haven't yet got to the "spoiling" of Paladin, but there's more about it in the later chapters of "StarFire" if you hadn't read that one yet.
Connie · 16 June 2004 · Chapter 1: Thorn: They'd Not Heard of the King
Oops. I think I just sent you a blank review. Sorry about that. This looks like it could be an interesting story. I'm curious to see where it's going. Glad to see something new so soon. Connie.
Author's reply
I'm curious, too. The outline has already been rewritten three times... LOL. Thanks for the encouragement.
Lyta Padfoot · 16 June 2004 · Chapter 1: Thorn: They'd Not Heard of the King
Holy Cow! What a beginning! I squealed when I saw this story.
Author's reply
Hoorah! I must admit I was inspired by two stories, one in a book of LOTR fanfic (can you believe fanfic was published?) from awhile back, about the hobbits who never returned from fighting for the King, and another an excellent story by Citrine, also here on SoA, though the title slips my mind. I was just going to tell the stories of Bucca and Paladin, but the ending of Bucca's twin just insisted on sneaking in. Thanks for the comment!
Bodkin · 16 June 2004 · Chapter 1: Thorn: They'd Not Heard of the King
Clever Tokka. Dungeons at Angmar - not a place you want to visit.
Author's reply
Definitively. I imagine the gift shop there doesn't sell too many tee-shirts. Thanks for commenting.
Beruthiel · 16 June 2004 · Chapter 1: Thorn: They'd Not Heard of the King
How long is this story going to be? I must admit I'm a bit obsessed with Pippin and Paladin. I want you to hurry up and get to them! (Obnoxious of me, I know, but I can't help it in this case.) Will you be dealing with Paladin's personality change in this one?
Author's reply
In short (I shouldn't even be online right now): Don't know how long the story will be, but it looks to be one of the long ones. I understand your concern, Bucca's story could go on awhile. However, his chapters will alternate with Paladin chapters. So you'll see Pippin and Paladin (and Ferdi!) starting with chapter 2... And yes, you will see Paladin changing, sad to say. Hopefully the readers will agree with the Muse that he had his reasons. Does that help?
FantasyFan · 16 June 2004 · Chapter 1: Thorn: They'd Not Heard of the King
So this is to be Paladin's story, as well as Bucca'a? A sort of sequel to Shire? That part sounds interesting, but I am very intrigued to hear Paladin's tale. There's been a hint of troubles to come in Pearl, and lots about him in his latter days, but I want to see how he moves from one to the other. Paladin in the Young Steward days is bitter and cynical and grasping and cold. Even if you can show me his meanness is a mask for pain, I think it is going to be much harder to get sympathy generated for Paladin in the midst of his story than it was for the poor insane ruffian in the last one. But I'm looking forward to seeing it anyway. FF
Author's reply
I thought it would be interesting to alternate the story of the first Thain with Paladin's story, seeing as how he was not in line to be Thain originally. Perhaps, if the Muse could get the reader to feel pity for the mad ruffian (once he was safely dealt with), she might be able to do the same for Paladin. I certainly hope so. Pippin fans might get a bit upset, tho. We'll see. Serious character growth is apparent in the outline as it stands... and if all goes well you'll finally see the story of Ferdi and Pippin (nearly) burning down the old Thain's stables...