Reviews (110)

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And elven memory must make it hard to let go of all those little niggles that you remember so clearly from 6000 years ago. Even if returning from Namo's Halls meant that elves managed to dispose of old resentments (and I think Oropher might hang on to them most tenaciously) those who sailed west would still have all the baggage of their experience. It is hard for the young 'uns, though. Especially when the hostility is close to them - like Galenthil and Eleniel's grandparents/adar and its knock-on effect on Elerrina. At least Oropher and Galadriel wouldn't have to see each other much. It might well be seeing the effect of their snarking on the elflings that impelled them to grow up a little - and behave. The elflings are ... elflings. They make mistakes and are sometimes over-confident or headstrong, but they learn quickly - and have good families who guide them wisely. Most of the time. Bon voyage!

Author's reply

Eleniel is such a reasonable elleth. She is quite right that Aewlin or Nimloth would make sure everyone understood their point - even if their parents then put their feet down - but Eleniel doesn't dislike the training necessary to an elleth of her family, she just wants to spend more time with the forest and not be expected to be well-behaved and sensible all the time and - well, she doesn't know what she wants. Elerrina has done a pretty good job of adopting many Wood Elf ways, but the problem here is assumptions so deep that Elerrina doesn't even know she is putting pressure on her daughter to behave in certain ways. That's just what you do. She'd be horrified, really, to know that she was making Eleniel miserable. Discipline and self-control are one thing - she can't always do what she wants, but this is more than education. Still, Thranduil is on the case - and if Laerwen can't coax understanding while she and Elerrina coo over Celumil, then Legolas will win her round. I like elves on horseback in the forest - even if I do get stuck with wondering whether there will be enough grass - and they enjoy getting away from the routine to commune with trees! And Eleniel is Thranduil's granddaughter (and Laerwen's) - and she is bonded to the forest in a way that no full-blooded Noldor could really understand - she knows something is going on, but also that it's not scary. (Honest, too. Well brought up by her parents and grandparents and assorted helpers. The exact sort of elfling who needs little discipline - gentle guidance is quite enough.) I'm glad you enjoyed the reunion. Such moments have an other-worldly detachment, even for ordinary people - how much more magical must this feel! And yet there is no way that it can be easy. The first hours, perhaps, but they have had three thousand years plus to change - and Thranduil is no longer a son and a prince, but a king who has led his people through appalling difficulties and grown and suffered and learnt in the process. I think they would spend time - years, even - together, but I can't see it lasting for ever, any more than Galadriel would dwell with her adar. They need their independence - and will love each other much more dearly if they have to spend a few days travelling to each other's homes! And space is something they have in plenty in these new realms. And, somehow, I just can't get away from the thought that nothing is that simple! There would be those who wanted to come and goggle - and others who hoped for some kind of advantage - and some, doubtless, who wanted to express their bitterness. And all the complications of where they will sleep and what they will eat and who will police them and entertain them. But I sort of see Oropher as pushing himself to return perhaps before he is really quite ready, because he won't acknowledge any weakness - and this is taking it out of him. He is rehoused - but there is no-one around simply to hold him. His wife has not come back, he has no daughters, he is far too macho to spend much time hugging his son - (it'd be manly shoulder-slapping) - and he needs someone to hold him close and trust him in the way that only a child can. Eleniel is on the edge of being young enough to do that - but she is a kind and intelligent elleth and she can see that that is exactly what is needed. And she is growing up a little more - which will help her to a better understanding of herself and her family and the role she plays in it. Thank you - I am so pleased you enjoyed this.

Author's reply

Your absence has been noted - and missed. Although I'm glad Ray's Dog managed an outing. Dratted computers! And too-much-to-do! Shouldn't be allowed. Thank you. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Redheredh has been anxious to see Oropher return - and secretly, I've been putting it off a bit. Partly because I don't feel I know him very well, and partly because his arrival is bound to cause all sorts of complications, rows, tight-lipped silences and political strife. More things, too - that's just for starters. But first reunion - how can it not be euphoric. And amazed. And wondrous. I don't know if Thranduil was entirely sure why he took Eleniel - except that she needed a break and a treat - but she was exactly what Oropher needed to help him ground himself in this new world. No complications at all - and - being an elleth - she can hold him and give him that physical connection that is only possible with partners or the young.

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Eleniel doesn't mind learning to be a lady THAT much - but she wants the freedom of the forest as well. She is a Wood Elf and she needs to be allowed to develop that side of her personality as well. Her naneth grew up in a very different environment, and although she has fitted well into this life, some of those very deeply ingrained assumptions about behaviour and discipline and training are just followed automatically and without question. If Eleniel were more difficult, I daresay Elerrina and Legolas would have thought about what they were doing - but she is generally quite happy to comply. Thranduil can see the growing pains - and being left behind by her twin is very painful - and did the best he could without interfering in the way L&E raise their children. I'm not sure he knew exactly why he felt impelled to go at first - but he and Eleniel were both needed, I think. Oropher needed someone to hold - and you can't go round spending hours cuddling grown elves just because you really, really need physical contact. I think the reunion could prove quite difficult for all concerned. Oropher, lovely as he doubtless is, is also obstinate, and rather headstrong. Tact is not his middle name! I'm sure more stories will feature him - especially as I get to know him better. I'm glad you enjoyed this - and thank you for commenting.

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Now, when does Oropher meet Taryatur? That's a cruel thought to put in someone's head! It would be an interesting meeting. Especially if, by any chance, Taryatur had been in Finarfin's army in the War of Wrath - and his hackles had been raised by the future King of Eryn Lasgalen. I am so pleased you liked this - I felt rather guilty putting it in as an Elflings. Oropher really deserves the dignity of a story of his own, but it just wasn't happening for me! The trees just had to be stirred up - and Thranduil has that bond with the forest that his descendants share. I think Thranduil didn't know at first - he just felt driven to ride west, but by the time they reached the part of the forest where they met Oropher, he knew what to expect. Even if no-one else did! I hadn't really thought of Elwe and Melian - but I suppose, in a way, all these reunions would have an element of that. And the longer and more traumatic the division, the more powerful the reunion. I think Hithien was wise to leave Eleniel in sight - and Eleniel was probably getting pretty hungry herself by the time Thranduil and Oropher recovered from the shock of meeting. The complications are intriguing - and actually made me rather dread introducing Oropher to my world. How on earth do you cope with bringing back a king who has been gone for over an age? What do you do with him? How does he deal with taking a back seat - replaced three thousand years ago by his son? How do people respond to him? It is desperately complex. And likely, I would have thought, to lead to a LOT of trouble. (Laerwen / Thranduil worked because of male / female differences, I think. She is the Lady - but she is happy to let him rule. As Eleniel put it - sort of - Daeradar rules, Daernaneth is.) And interactions are complicated - the people agree to be ruled, but the ruler is also bound by the contract. Which involves putting up with guards and doing what you don't want to do. (Good for Eleniel to see that, too! She's not the only one who has to fit into someone else's perception of her role!) Elerrina has made a huge transition to fit into the Wood Elves' world - and she has done pretty well. The thing with Eleniel is that she is applying standards that are so deeply ingrained that she doesn't even realise that she has expectations - and she won't realise unless someone points it out. These things are just what you do. And, on the whole, Eleniel doesn't mind too much - she knows she is her adar's daughter and her daeradar's granddaughter and that she has a duty to learn to fulfil that role. She just wants a bit more of the Wood Elf life - more outdoors, more animals, more forest - as well as having to weave and sew and keep accounts and know about food storage and wine and precedence and managing celebrations and diplomacy and music and on and on and on. Laerwen might be able to make Elerrina understand - she probably has a better chance than Thranduil, anyway! Thranduil didn't indulge in Khuzdul curses . . . My, wouldn't Gimli have enjoyed that. It's almost to delicious a thought to waste - except Thranduil wouldn't have fallen for it. I hope the patience and understanding between son and father last until Oropher has time to adjust - because it is not going to be easy. 'They'. . . I thought I'd leave it open. Maybe Rostaro and the others have been left behind. Maybe those who serve in the Gardens of Lorien. Oropher is not likely to have been too patient, I think. Wrapping his arm round his knee - sneakily I think I just needed a bit of business to break up the conversation, but it just seems a very natural way for a graceful elf to sit in a tree. And a good place for Eleniel, Oropher and Thranduil to get away from all the hordes of Oropher-fans. It wasn't written all that long ago - it's been sort of in my mind, but it didn't come together until it became part of this arc. I'm grateful you kept my mind on the job! It must have been such a blessing to encounter those to whom you needed to make no explanations or apologies - who could accept you purely for what you were now. (And I'm far too soft to want to make Oropher endure to the end of days without Mrs Oropher. Even if I do have to think of a name for her.) Thank you for enjoying this - and tempting me to move on to other ideas.

Author's reply

You put so much into your reviews that you can't possibly review everything. I'm glad this excited you enough to make you put off going to bed (and at least you get an extra hour to make up!) Growing up - whether elf, man or any other species - is not an easy time and even a good kid like Eleniel has her trials. Thranduil knows only too well that being a grandfather is special - the hugs, but not the challenges - and realises that guiding Celumil will be a whole different kettle of fish. I don't think Elerrina is deliberately being difficult, really. She has made big adjustments and embraced much of the Wood Elf culture - but everyone has some things that are just so deeply engrained that you don't even realise they're there. Some of her assumptions about elleth behaviour come from that very deep area - she doesn't even know until someone mentions it, that there are other ways of thinking of things. And Eleniel is a very co-operative and - as she says - sensible elleth. She doesn't fight just for the sake of it. Moreover, even Aewlin and Nimloth have to learn how to be female representatives of their line - and that involves learning to run (rather than rule) large estates and manage households. The Oropher reunion is one I have been putting off - even though Redheredh's interest meant it was going to come! - because it is chock full of complications. How does a returned king come back to his people over 3k years after he died? Who rules? How does a son who has been in charge for over an age deal with this? How do the people react to him? What is he going to do? How soon does it become apparent that 3k years is a long time, even for elves - and that an emotional response might not be enough to heal a relationship long sundered? Things have changed - new alliances, new understandings - and things that drove politics an age ago are barely even memory. People have changed. Oropher is impetuous - it's a sort of defining characteristic - and I can imagine those whose ease the passage back to life telling him that he needed to think his way through all this. And him igoring the advice. Eleniel - and Celumil, I think - will be key in helping him find some solidity. Galenthil, too, but less - because as a male he is less available for the emotional and physical contact that I think Oropher needs. And Eleniel might come to realise that different isn't worse - and find her own strength. She doesn't get to be centre stage much. Naughty elflings are much easier to have as the main characters! I'm so pleased you enjoyed the build-up to the meeting - and the meeting itself. It must be so shattering to have returned to you the father you lost under such horrific circumstances. But splendid too - and emotional and almost frightening in its intensity. And now - as you say - the problem is what to do with Oropher!

Author's reply

Thank you. This would be such a complicated reunion - with all kinds of inferences to do with relationships and power and the emotional backlash of battle and sudden death. Resentment, too, probably. And, as you say, old grudges that are now millennia out-of-date. And combined with the reaction of thousands of others - those to whom Oropher is their king: those to whom Oropher is the war-leader responsible for the death of their husband/son/father: those to whom he is no more than a name from history. And not only he has to deal with this maelstrom; everyone around him has to cope with it in a different way. The uncomplicated love of a child is probably something Oropher needs desperately. Oropher, Galadriel and Celeborn. True. That could be very interesting.

Author's reply

Thank you. Blame Redheredh for putting Oropher in my head. I feel guilty for putting him here really - and combining him with Eleniel, who is, after all, my world rather than Tolkien's. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

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Flatterer! I am thoroughly enjoying the writing and have no intention of stopping any time soon. It's far too much fun - and such a delightful world in which to play. Redheredh tempted me to think about Oropher some time ago - but I admit I have been delaying - because his presence is going to add about a hundred layers of complication to all the relationships. I really don't know how Thranduil will deal with it - and don't want him ending up wishing his adar had stayed with Namo. And you want Ereinion? And then I would rather like to see Maglor meeting Elrond after x thousand years. And, perhaps, an Earendil/Maglor meeting. Thank you for reading - and putting ideas in my head!

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Should have been a question mark there. 'Male and female elves were equally capable' but my own feeling is that the females probably got stuck with the superwoman role of independent careers, childcare and looking after the household, while the males were ready to protect their families from the attack of any woolly mammoth. Oh hang on. There weren't any woolly mammoth. Elerrina has made a huge leap in attitude and expectation with her marriage to Legolas - but she hasn't, perhaps, come quite as far as she thinks. And it's probably in the underlying assumptions that she still has a way to go. She doesn't consciously subdue Eleniel and push her into a girly role - it's just what she considers so normal she doesn't even think about it. And Eleniel is a co-operative child, (unlike Elrohir's ellyth) and she mostly accepts the restrictions - and, moreover, she does need to learn to run (rather than rule) kingdoms. Now Thranduil's noticed, he'll probably wangle rather more time in the woods for his granddaughter. Oropher. Cat. Pigeons. Will they clash? Oh, I would think so. I can't imagine them being able to live together for long - Thranduil has been king too long to hand the reins back. (Legolas never was king - and he knew/hoped that he was standing in for his adar over the years he waited for him to arrive. At least, that's how I see him having been able to cope with his adar resuming control.) And meeting those who have no expectations of you - nothing to straighten out - must have been bliss to those who returned. Oropher needed - needs - that. Thank you!

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I can imagine, somehow, that Elerrina finds it much easier to let Galenthil be a Wood Elf - but expects Eleniel to be more like her. I'm hoping that Laerwen manages to make her ease off - probably more because she doesn't want to damage her relationship with her daughter than because she truly understands. Maybe Miriwen or Sirithiel would be better able to get Elerrina to grasp the underlying problem. Legolas cherishes his wife - and probably (male) doesn't see the problem - because, after all, ellyth do have to learn how to do girly things. Despite male and female roles being supposedly less defined, I can say I've seen much evidence of it - the ellyth look after people and the ellyn fight. And rule. Galadriel being the exception. And Eleniel is a reasonable, amenable kind of elleth - she will comply (unlike Aewlin and Nimloth) because she wants to please her parents. Maybe, the return of Oropher will help. Eleniel is Legolas's daughter - and Thranduil and Laerwen's granddaughter. Her bond to the forest is much greater than most others, even among Wood Elves - and she has a communion with it - like them. I'm glad you enjoyed Thranduil's reunion with Oropher - I can imagine it being a great joy that could become an extremely complex situation, both politically and emotionally, so I've been putting it off a bit. Thank you.

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Well - you've been busy. But now things are settling down for the long haul and you need a break. And what better than fanfiction! (And fluffy Legolas stories - hint, hint!) Mothers are the same wherever they are - and washing hands and brushing hair are important to all of them! Silence is a good technique for making 'em squirm. Legolas has been of the receiving end of paternal disapproval often enough to know! And an apology to Daeradar (or perhaps Daernaneth) was called for, I think. If only children realised how much of parenting was a game - where the adults know the rules. I'm glad you liked Thranduil and Laerwen (which is still a stinky name to type) - and wouldn't Thranduil be thrown if Oropher turned up and started issuing commands! I'm glad you enjoyed it - and I agree that being in the forest watching badgers would be a great way to spend some time. And being in the company of elves would add a certain je ne sais quoi, too.

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Thank you. I am so flattered I shall go and dig out something else to post! Galenthil is a delightful ellon. Lots of good qualities. Like his adar in some ways, but rather more focused on creatures of the forest. And charming with it. Eleniel being judgemental? I didn't mean her to seem that way! She is trying to grow up pleasing both her Wood Elf adar and her Noldor naneth - and has to make some accommodations along the way. She is still keen on archery - but she has to do the girlie stuff too - sew and learn to run households and music and basic healthcare and weaving and accounts and managing the stillroom and all those sorts of beneath the surface things that are going on all the time. And, being an elleth, she feels a bit older than Galenthil mentally just now. Perhaps she needs to be centre stage for a story! The little one will turn up soon. I don't think Laerwen will be able to wait much longer! I think Legolas looks forward to watching Thranduil raise a little elleth. I'm glad you enjoyed this!

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I don't know that I have a favourite elf. Maybe a favourite-at-that-moment elf. But, on the whole, I love 'em all! I'm also quite fond of Men (note capital - wouldn't want to sound too - erm - widespread in my habits). And dwarves. And hobbits. I think I have a sneaking desire to give them all happy lives, though. Galenthil is a good kid - like his adar in many ways, but rather more one-track-minded - and more inclined to let Eleniel sort out some of the complications of life. And Eleniel is intelligent - and a noticing sort of child, who likes to please her adults. They have four core adults and lots of peripheral ones all of whom care for them and want to do right by them. Could get a bit oppressive at times, I should think. And happy adults make for happy children. Legolas - and his adar - are both apt to use their charm to get their own way. But, they know it's a game - and that both sides have to be pleased with the results. Thranduil has enough sense to leave most of the parental stuff to Legolas and Eleniel (because interference there has tremendous potential for dispute), but he's had plenty of practice in disciplining careless ellyn and can make his point when he wishes! Whether he is quite as good at managing ellyth I am not so sure! Elerrina's parents don't see why they shouldn't express their opinion. And don't realise that their opinion is both unwelcome and likely to widen the wedge between them and their daughter. Legolas and Elerrina are fortunate in their children, I think. But, as the old saying goes, 'the harder they work, the luckier they get'. Thank you. And I like Thranduil being badger-like!

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Legolas - middle-aged! Well - I suppose there are moments when children tend to make the most frivolous parent feel ancient. But he was a warrior and a leader of elves in his former life - he knows how to do authoritative when it's needed. He doesn't have as much strain put on him as Elrohir, but there are times when his offspring need - er - direction. The elf warriors have the advantage of plenty of time to adjust to a more peaceful life - and plenty of space, too, in which to do it. Legolas can enjoy himself with his wife and children - and yet still have plenty to do. I'm glad you like this. But the elflings are growing up far too quickly!

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They are growing up too quickly, though! (Every parent's plaint about their children.) They have jumped from new-born to the edge of adulthood so quickly. I should have kept them younger for longer. And it is fun to involve characters who can do what you (or they) want. Although that is also an advantage of putting canon characters in Valinor! They are not on their way to any kind of scripted meeting, but free to adapt to a new world. Elerrina's parents are difficult. But she lives a good long way from them and doesn't have to see them very often. (Could be part of the difficulty. Maybe, next time they visit, Taryatur should be incapacitated somehow until he learns the merits of an unconventional life among the trees.) Legolas can be firm when he needs to be - but he is understanding. And very happy!

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Legolas has to play the firm father at times - and he has a good example to follow! But he is generally pretty understanding, and the rules imposed are fairly reasonable. Even Galenthil agrees - he knew perfectly well why his father was irritated. I think the elves are pretty kind and tolerant on the whole - and love children - but expect self-discipline. And are prepared to work on their young to see they develop it. Eleniel is a poppet. Very clear-sighted and well-balanced. And Nimoth and Aewlin are improving! The image of the badger elf-watching suddenly appealed tremendously. I wonder if he thinks he's developed a pretty good understanding of their habits!

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Galenthil has a real thing about creatures. I'm rather wondering what will grab his attention next! Thank you - I try to limit the imagery to keep it more effective. I can get carried away!

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Eternal extended families. I knew the Gift of Men was called a gift for a reason. In a way, it's nice to have the family there - but it must be hard to change the dynamics as the young reach several thousand years old. Bring in the idea of rehousing those who leave the Halls of Mandos and you are getting into potentially seriously dysfunctional families. Can you imagine Thranduil reverting to boyhood if Oropher turns up? It would be real take-cover time. And Legolas was on his own for several hundred years until Adar turned up to take control back into his hands. While Elladan and Elrohir managed in Arda without Adar. Then you have the ellyth leaving their homes to become the daughter in someone else's house, with all the settling in that that entails. It must be difficult at times. Even for elves. The badger tolerated their presence - just as long as they didn't interfere in his family. He might take up elf-watching. He needs a hobby!

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Well, when you're a father, you have to play the father role. But Legolas does have a good understanding of what drives his son. Thranduil is too accustomed to ruling, I think. And he is a far more indulgent daeradar of Eleniel. Of course, being female (and not as one-track minded as Galenthil) she is much better at managing her daeradar. Thranduil is definitely suffering from older father anxiety, too. And he's not good at dealing with stressful events he can't influence. But Laerwen will keep him reasonably calm. This just didn't want to finish - and the badger just seemed to shake his head and look over the elves tolerantly. (Though he's not as grand as Legolas's mice.)

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Ah. Good point. Must insert a note. I was seeking Quenya-ish terms for grandfather and grandmother - and settled on these. So they are Elerrina's somewhat stiff parents. I like Eleniel, too. She's very sensible and loyal - with her adar's charm and her naneth's skill in wrapping male relatives round her little finger. And Galenthil is very single-minded - definitely the kind of kid who would want to be a vet or work in the protection of wildlife if he were around today. Thank you. Author Reply: I've added a note to that effect! Thanks for reminding me.

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It really is quite fun to do something that is simply set in this world without having to tie it to anything more complicated than the teenage psyche! Neldor is a very good grandfather for Elrin to have now - someone who points out that he doesn't have to strive to be greater than his famous ancestors, but just be himself. And he is detached enough to be able to speak of things that Elrin would find hard to discuss with Elrond. Poor Aewlin and Nimloth! Running massive extended households is difficult - though probably not a patch on trying to run massive extended households in co-operation with mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law and sisters and aunts! They need to know how to do it - after all, Galadriel combines Wood-running with her other talents. Not too keen on babies? H'mm - they have their down sides, I admit, but they are little for so short a time, and they have their own delights. Especially to an elf, probably, who counts age in centuries. (There was a woman on TV the other day who has 13 children. She just adores being pregnant and having babies. She wants at least one more, too. And then it'll probably be one more again.) Elrin is (perhaps) a bit of a slow starter in these games. (Nadhras seems to know how to play them!) But he does like to feel in control - he doesn't much care for the roller-coaster of feelings associated with ellyth - yet! And he certainly picked up that pretty doesn't mean nice. I don't think he'll be walking with Olostariel again. (Pity I called her that. I like that name and now it's wasted.) Aewlin and Nimloth will keep an eye on him. Which could be amusing. I think they will check out candidates for his attention - probably to his complete embarrassment. Camping trip with daeradar? Miriwen revealing more of her past? (You are a fount of ideas!) The next Elflings is Galenthil/Eleniel. I can say that because it's written (practically). And Awaiting the Thaw is likely to get a totally unexpected second chapter - it announced itself yesterday - where Miriwen and Elladan meet again. Thereafter . . . dunno. (I know what Thranduil's daughter is going to be called, though!)

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September approaches. Distressingly fast! Sewing is one of those girlie-skills that is extremely important in a low-technological society - I can't somehow see elves with the equivalent of sweat shops in the Third World. And embroidery is one of those elements of sewing that separates simple households from aristocratic. Which describes this household - even if elves aren't supposed to be classist. (You'd be better borrowing Sirithiel. She's good at sewing and quick. Aewlin is still learning.) Aewlin knows doing Nimloth's sewing will cause trouble - and does it anyway, because her sister works more on optimism. But no pair of 10 year olds (human equivalent: they're about 25,) is about to get the better of wily ellyth like Celebrian and Sirithiel. And being 10ish, Aewlin and Nimloth can be remarkably clear-sighted. Old enough to know something about teenage emotions, but too young to feel them. Interested enough to watch the techniques of the like of Olostariel, and perceptive enough to understand her motives. I rather like the extended family - cousins as close as sisters and brothers. Whether it's as easy to live in this kind of group as adults, I don't know. Must have been hard on Miriwen and Sirithiel to move into the Elrond/Celebrian and the twins group. Thank you - I am glad you liked it. This was rather fun to do - maybe Elrin needs to watch out. He really doesn't want to undergo too much teenage torment!

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Elrin is a star. A typically responsible first-born. (I don't expect Ellanthir to be quite as sensible.) He will survive the growing years - and doubtless be a son to be proud of. And the twins' good qualities will shine more as they mature, I expect. Quite a lot of characteristics that make good strong adults are less appreciated in children! Thank you for reading!

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Aewlin is clever - and loyal. Her visionary talents don't give her too much trouble at the moment, but she does see further into a brick wall than most. And she knows that they'll both get into trouble if she does Nimloth's sewing for her - but she'll still do it. Miriwen's parents are very nice. And reasonable and loving. And tolerant. Elladan knows he is lucky - in more ways than one. (D'you know, Awaiting the Thaw was intended to be a one-off, but I've got them all hassling me with a second chapter - where Elladan begins to see how lucky he might be!) Adolescence. Such a joy. Why people call those years the best of your life I don't know. Elrin won't much like realising that some see him as a stepping stone to position and power - but he is sensible enough to retain the lesson without becoming too suspicious, I think. And adolescence is the time when all-powerful parents lose their sheen - Elrin might well have found his discovery of his father and uncle's trauma made them seem more real. Or not. Yes, it would make an interesting moment to see.