French Pony
· 19 November 2004
· Chapter 12: The help of all things
It's amazing what a little fencing, a day with only one class, a nap and chocolate will do for one's mood.
Dieneryn really is a shiksa, isn't she? When Thranduil asked her to stay with the Dwarves, the first thing I thought was that he had picked the only person he could, for what nana could refuse her firstborn baby anything? The second thing I thought was that her response might go more along these lines:
Thranduil: Stay with the Dwarves for fifty years, naneleh.
Dieneryn: What? Me, stay with the Dwarves, whose people rose up and destroyed my home, which I fled with only the clothes on my back and my baby in my arms? Oy, Thranduileh, with my own body I nourished you and protected you from the marauding Dwarves, and this is how you repay your mother's love?
Thranduil: On second thought, maybe Lindomiel should stay. . .
Dieneryn: No, my son should not have to ask his wife such a thing. From your mother you may ask, for a mother will always give. Fine. Go away Enjoy these last years remaining to you in your lovely, civilized, tree-house capital, in the company of your own people and your brother. You will be very busy, organizing wonderful farewell parties and celebrations, so I will not expect you to write to your old mother, all alone with the Dwarves, but if you ever need anything of me, all you need to do is ask. When my grandchildren (whom I will never see in the beauty of their infancy) arrive, be kind and name one for your father, may he rest in peace, and teach them not to forget your poor, dutiful, abandoned mother, doing her duty to her King and Lord living all alone with only the Dwarves for company.
By that point, Thranduil would be lying on the floor sobbing openly.
But Lindomiel does make up for much of that, doesn't she. Oh well, it'll be a way to get Thranduil up to the construction site for. . . ahem. . . "inspection" at least once a year, nudge nudge wink wink, eh wot?
I am endlessly amused by Nali, who approves of the King's plans. I do hope he turns out to be one of Gimli's distant ancestors, because that would be just too cool.
Wow. . . when Radagast says that "a little bird told him" something, he really means it, doesn't he? And Thranduil is going to take on a fifty-year apprenticeship in bird-listening. It must seem to his people as though he's Prince Charles who's just met his latest guru. But it is a useful skill to have, and he will have fifty "frustrating" years ahead of him, so he might as well do something productive. And then he, too, will be able to smile serenely and say "oh, a little bird told me."
Smackdown! We all knew Amoneth had it coming (and boy howdy, did she ever!), but the threats against Aradunnon were something else. Thranduil certainly knows how to wield a mean threat, doesn't he? Though I suspect that, were he truly to banish Aradunnon, he'd find out real quick just how much he needs li'l bro around for his own mental health. Which would just make him even more pissed off at Amoneth. Speaking of whom, she is finally going to get the education she should have had a long time ago, and it's going to be a lot harder now. This may force her to decide once and for all if Aradunnon is really worth marrying or not.
Author's reply
Ok, I have a new rule--in addition to not reading your reviews at work, I am also not going to read them at 5:00am when I can't sleep because my husband is snoring. I laughed so hard at this that I woke him up.... Wait. That seems fair.
I loved your version of Thranduil and Dieneryn's dialogue. Even more so because there is a version of it that has a line something like "What would your father have said and how do you plan on explaining this order to him when you see him again..." blah blah--in other words, laying it on a bit more. I liked yours better though.
I like Nali too. I like dwarves. I think I'd be one if I lived in Middle Earth. They fit my personality pretty well I'd have to admit.
Radagast, as little part as he gets in LotR, was my favorite character when I first read the book (I read the trilogy before the Hobbit and got attached to the Elvenking). I'm afraid I'm one of those tree-huggers as they call us in the US. An environment freak. I thought the idea of Yavanna and Radagast was just too cool on Tolkien's part. So I'm afraid I have to include him when I can. And it does say in the Hobbit that the birds had already carried news of Smaug's death to the Elvenking, so canonically, Thranduil does have a special relationship with the birds in his realm. So.... Bottom line, I'll admit, I just like Radagast and birds. :) (The Prince Charles guru thing is what finally did me in--I had my laughter smothered in a pillow before that.)
Yes, Amoneth had it coming and now she's going to get it. For fifty years. Good thing time passes under an elf's notice. I'm sure Thranduil would not want to lose Aradunnon, for personal and political reasons. But, he is right--Amoneth behaved like an idiot--where was Aradunnon? He should have helped her. They both are at fault. So now they have Thranduil's personal help. As much as I'd like to spend time with the Elvenking, I don't think those would be the perfect circumstances.
Thanks for the review! I'm glad you're feeling better. Yes fencing and chocolate...that's the ticket.
Brazgirl
· 19 November 2004
· Chapter 12: The help of all things
This was your best chapter, it trully was.
Thranduil's mother reaction was so, so nice! I love it. And Lindomiel, even at her age, is behaving so well, so queen like. It was a wise decision, though it will cause her beautiful husband some loneliness. Loved the wizard. Very natural, very Tolkien like.
And now... the best.
The discussion between Thranduil and Amoneth. It was better than I expected. Thank you so much for sharing this. Actually thanks for sharing this fic! Hey, I don't care how long you take to update, this is just great!
Come on! When Thranduil said he would be her tutor I jumped! And I bet he is the most strict tutor she will now! He sounds to me someone who never lets his pupils fails... that is frightening!
The whole guilty he made her feel, the threats... the treatment he gave his brother because of her! Very, very nice!
Wonderful.
Brazgirl (still amazed by Thranduil)
Author's reply
Thank you, Brazgirl. :) I had fun with this chapter in a lot of ways. Mainly because I was playing with Thranduil's authority. His mother gives him a hard time--and Thranduil even admits he couldn't force her to stay--but notice that she does stay. Lindomiel stays though Thranduil would prefer she not--again he admits he can't stop her--but he still gets what he wants: Lindomiel's acceptance of the new home. The guards don't want to stay behind...but notice they do. Radagast goes where he wants, and it's where Thranduil wants him. And boy does Amoneth get what she deserves--Thranduil's full wrath. In other words--Thranduil always gets what he wants in the end. :) I love Thranduil.
I thought you'd like the discussion between Thranduil and Amoneth. It was pretty harsh but she has had plenty of opportunities to do the right thing and she didn't. And now she will pay--yes, I bet Thranduil will be a very demanding tutor. :) She will not fail. It will be frightening for her if she doesn't shape up. And, ultimately, he is really trying to help her and therefore his brother. He's a good person.
Thanks for the review!
daw the minstrel
· 19 November 2004
· Chapter 12: The help of all things
Wow. Angry!Thranduil is really scary. If that doesn't make an impression on Amoneth, nothing will.
I was interested in the fact that Lindomiel stayed in the north. That's consistent with what Tolkien says about married couple sometimes spending years apart (as Galadriel and Celeborn did in the Second Age). Of course, I think that usually comes after the childbearing years, but the times are so tumultuous here that Thranduil and Lindomiel have evidently put that off.
Author's reply
Angry!Thranduil is scary. I get a kick out of him (probably because I'm safely on the other side of my computer screen and not in the same room with him). But Amoneth can't gainsay him publicly. This chapter played around a little with authority and Thranduil getting everything he needed where he needs it. There are lots of ways to do that. Dieneryn and Lindomiel do things for the sake of the kingdom whether they like them or not and Thranduil gets the help he needs from them--he doesn't have to worry about having absolute control over them because they already make their choices for the best of the realm. Some people, like Radagast, play a role Thranduil doesn't completely understand yet, that may not entirely sit well with him yet, but that his instincts tell him will serve his ends. And some people, like Amoneth, must be brought to compliance. In the end, Thranduil has what he needs.
Yes, LaCE says elves sometimes spend time apart. I almost think fifty years would seem trivial to them though so it shouldn't be that big a hardship. But honestly, the childbearing years thing is the part of this story that even I don't accept, to be honest. Thranduil and Lindomiel have been married for 1000 years of perfectly peaceful time now and LaCE says elves have children early on in their marriage in times of peace. There really isn't any reason they shouldn't have children yet. Except I just can't believe that Legolas is 3000 years old at the War of the Ring so... I fudge over that a little in the opening chapter of this part with the whole 'Thranduil's been busy bringing his kingdom back to prosperity and Lindomiel was so young herself' thing but it doesn't really hold water. :) Oh well. I don't want Legolas born yet. So he's not. :-D
Thanks for the review.
Bodkin
· 19 November 2004
· Chapter 12: The help of all things
Well, I wouldn't want to cross Thranduil. I hope Amoneth manages to learn from his 'personal tutelage'. It could well be the making of her. (I hope it is, because I would like to see her and Aradunnon happy together.) I think it's one of the problems of being the spare. (The wives of the aristocratic and royal being obliged to produce an 'heir and spare' before getting on with their own lives.) The trouble is that the spare doesn't have much of a role and the wife (or betrothed) of a spare has even less. Perhaps if Amoneth had been put to work earlier, she wouldn't be such an idiot.
Thranduil's cool authority was much more scary than shouting at her - and she might be more inclined to try if she knows how upset Aradunnon would be if she failed and was exiled.
On the other hand, he was really interesting in his treatment of Radagast - and he is right. Radagast's presence is the best thing possible for the forest under present circumstances. I hope Thranduil manages to learn Dr. Doolittle techniques. Perhaps Aradunnon should learn, too.
Lindomiel is wise to stay in the north and work with her naneth-in-law establish the stronghold - although it surely won't be a total separation. Thranduil is bound to have to pop north regularly. (He seems to have won on leaving his captain and lieutenant to guard the ladies.)
I love Nali - he is a Good Dude. And the secret passage idea is a good one.
Thranduil might not be able to command Dieneryn, Lindomiel or Radagast, but I think he can do a pretty good job on everyone else.
Author's reply
No, I would not ever want to have a meeting like that with anyone and Thranduil, much less. And I definitely would not want Thranduil's personal tutelage. When I started grad school, I was terribly under-prepared for the program I was accepted to. One of the professors called me into his office after the first exam and read me the riot act (calmly, like Thranduil, but after I left his office I went to the bathroom and cried) and then offered me his personal tutelage. He and his wife, who also worked in the department, made it their mission in life to bring me up to speed. It worked. That professor did not allow failure. He ended up being my dissertation director and I just loved him. But boy! That was a tough semester! I suspect that Thranduil and Aradunnon have finally made an impression on Amoneth.
I think the heir and spare thing is funny. Sad and true. But funny. And you are correct.
I like Radagast a lot. I don't buy the 'he failed because he got caught up with animals' thing. Granted, Tolkien made it very clear in his letters and in UT that is what he intended for Radagast, but I think he's wrong. If Radagast had not been friends with the Eagles, Gandalf would still be locked up in Orthanc. Radagast served his role, however small. Over time, everyone who played a role in the War of the Ring has had their place laid out for them. It's so interesting how all these things come to pass. And he does help in Mirkwood too, I think. We know from the Hobbit that birds are the special friends of the Elvenking. Heaven only knows if Thranduil learned that himself or with Radagast's help but in my story, he had the wizard's help. :)
I like Nali too. I had more fun writing the dwarves in the various parts of this story than I expected I would. They are pretty cool and I can identify with their personality as it's described in the Sim far too well. :)
Yes, Thranduil gets exactly what he wants regardless of how he got it. Dieneryn did stay. Lindomiel did accept the caves. Radagast will help Mirkwood. The guards may have protested (I suspect they did), but they stayed. And everyone else--you'd be better off obeying. Take Amoneth as an example of what happens when you don't. :)
Thanks for the review!
Brazgirl
· 18 November 2004
· Chapter 11: In the furtherance of feuds
Uau! What a discussion... I think it was the worse thing Amoreth had to hear from someone. He said he distrust her, he doesn't see her as his wife... that her tongue is a threat to their love... And he is right! They had had that conversation before and she should have get it by now.
Thranduil irritated is always nice for me. I love this elf.
I was so anxious to read this chapter... thanks for the update!
Author's reply
Hi Brazgirl! Yes, Amoneth got a harsh lecture an I agree, what Aradunnon said had to sting pretty badly. She deserved it. And it's only the beginning. I am proofreading the next chapter right now and I hope to post it this evening. Amoneth faces Thranduil in this one. I have to agree with you--I find an irritated Thranduil to be a lot of fun. So I had fun with the next chapter.
Sorry the update took so long this time. In addition to an insane workload, my car died and my dog is having liver surgery (can you imagine such a thing for a dog!) and both my husband and I got the flu! It's been a tense last week. :) Thank heavens I have the fun of LotR fanfiction!
French Pony
· 18 November 2004
· Chapter 11: In the furtherance of feuds
I'm sorry I'm late with this, but I've been kind of depressed all week, and today was a not-good day, so I'm not really up to leaving a long, charming review. Is it okay if, just this once, I tell you that I really liked this chapter and leave it at that? I promise I'll be a better Pony next time.
Author's reply
Oh, you are always wonderful--especially when you go to the trouble to review when you don't feel up to doing anything. I'm sorry to hear it's been a hard week. I wish I could take you out for lunch or something because everyone knows there have been times when just reading your reviews has lifted me out of a sour mood so I owe you. Blow off school today, call in sick from work and pamper yourself--yummy lunch at your favorite restaurant, nice reading.... You deserve it. You work hard and write great fic on top of it. Hope you feel better.
daw the minstrel
· 17 November 2004
· Chapter 11: In the furtherance of feuds
Nobody does politics like you do, Elliska. This is just wonderful. It gives such a sense of the larger world and the Mannish history that sweeps by while the Elves endure. I had to laugh about the naming of Dol Guldur. It reminded me of discussions I've seen about how countries should be named on maps in order to avoid being imperialistic.
I enjoyed seeing Amoneth being slapped with the truth again, but it seems to make only a temporary impression on her. We'll see if she does better this time. She really needs to have the fear of Thranduil put in her if she can't behave herself out of love or good sense.
Author's reply
Thanks Daw. :) I have to tell you how grateful I am that you asked that question in the yahoo group. I made some assumptions about the men east of Mirkwood that wouldn't have been completely wrong but they also weren't nearly as interesting as canon (imagine that). I was stunned to learn about Vidugavia calling himself King of Rhovanion in the 1200's--that's just too close to when this story is set and it indicates a much more powerful group of men much further north than I had imagined. Also, otherwise I would have completely forgotten to mention them in this story and I would have lost some good material in the next one. I think later I would have realized it was a hole for Thranduil to have discussed these changes with everyone but his closest neighbors, so I was very glad for that discussion topic.
And it did amuse me. This 'King of Rhovanion,' in truth a Prince of the Northmen, seemed to just come to power and then his kingdom diminished by the end of the 1300's. Nothing compared to the view on history that writing elves has forced me to take. It seemed fast to me so you know it would to Thranduil.
I laughed at the Dol Guldur thing too. Who knows who really named it but we know it was Men that started calling the forest Mirkwood so I thought I'd take a poke at that.
This reality slap for Amoneth has only just begun. And I think I've decided to take the more difficult story route so Thranduil is not going to be the only one to deal with her. But it will be memorable this time.
Thanks for the review!
PS--I laughed when you added to that review about the Enchanted River--not to worry, it would never have occured to me. I can hardly wait to see what you do with it. My mention of it is really very brief in what will likely turn out to be the last chapter of this story. It also gets mentioned a few other times in other stories but it's never a major plot point that I can remember. I just wanted to see how people felt about it/if it would rub people the wrong way. And to make sure I hadn't missed anything in canon--after all, I misplaced an entire Mannish kingdom. :)
Bodkin
· 17 November 2004
· Chapter 11: In the furtherance of feuds
Aradunnon is being quite firm here! (About time.) I hope it has some effect. Tact hasn't. Ignoring it hasn't. Maybe she's one of the sort of people who has to live something before she can internalise it. At least he has given her a rule that surely even Amoneth can understand. Everyone except him is public. And a warning that surely even Amoneth can understand. If she cannot make peace with Thranduil and is sent away, she goes alone. I think she needs a trip to Amon Lanc to see what is going on with her own eyes.
I liked the men turning up - and their difficulty with understanding that straight away to an elf can be a couple of lifetimes away to a man. The man from Esgaroth seems much more intelligent than the little lordling, but I suppose that he has only just come into the role of heir and might show a bit more sense next time they meet. I can see why he's worried if the elves are moving their armies away from protecting the areas near their lands.
The indignation about men daring to name somewhere in his realm - understandable (but funny).
Good chapter. Got to go.
Author's reply
Amoneth has been given something to think about. But it's not over for her yet. She still has to talk to Thranduil. An angry Thranduil.
I had fun looking into the men. They actually didn't have any role in this part of the story until Daw brought up the topic of Men and their history with the Woodland Realm for her current story in the SoA yahoo group. That made me think about it and it's a good thing too because if I'm exploring the move to the stronghold, and Thranduil discussed it with people as far aaway as Imladris, surely he discussed it with his closest neighbors. Plus, I had a lot of fun looking into that. I learned a lot about the Northmen and their origin and their interaction with Gondor and the locations of their realms east of Mirkwood. There was really more to it than I initially thought.
The Man for Esgaroth was older and knew Thranduil (even with his capital in the south, I assumed Thranduil had been trading with Esgaroth because they had long held the trade route along the River Running). The 'young lordling' is just that--young. I imagine he would be the great grandfather of King Vidugavia (canon--father of Vidumavi whose marriage to King Valacar of Gondor caused the first kin strife in Gondor and who had the nerve to call himself King of Rhovanion), so I think his arrogance is a family trait. But I thought that Thranduil's presence clearly protects more than just his own realm and if they were fighting Easterling raids and amongst themselves as canon shows, they couldn't want an orc problem on their western front.
I got a kick out of Thranduil's react to Dol Guldur myself, especailly given that within a hundred years Men rename his whole forest to a less than flattering name.
Thanks for the review!
ghemstone
· 9 November 2004
· Chapter 10: The fortress of his people
I am really enjoying this fic. The move to the caves is certainly a headache for Thranduil, but at least now Lindomiel is warming to the idea. Men? I am lokking forward to seeing who they could be, as i'm looking forward to many things in this fic.
Too much good stuff yet again. Not that i'm complaining, of course. One thing i've realised though, is that Thranduils' mother is quite prominent in the story, but obviously there is no mention of her in the Hobbit (althugh saying that, there was hardly any mention of Thranduil either), do i take that to mean that she is staying as a character, or will there be more grief for Thranduil and Aradunnon.
Whatever you do with this fic, i have no doubt that i will love it.
ghemstone
Author's reply
I'm glad you are enjoying it. :) Yes, I think this major of a relocation would be awful to manage. But Thranduil is very good at it.
Thranduil's mother, Dieneryn, has a continuing role--bigger in a couple of parts than others. That is because too many OCs in each part make the story impossible to manage so sometimes some OCs have larger or smaller roles as the plot warrants. But by the time we get to the Hobbit...Hmmm... Yes, there is some angst as the plot develops too.
The Men are a new complication added most recently due to a discussion in the Yahoo group. I was glad it came up because it was actually kind of a plot hole to not include them.
Thank you so much for the reviews.
Brazgirl
· 8 November 2004
· Chapter 10: The fortress of his people
I have known this site for a while but I prefer reading this at ff.net because of the backgroud. Here is cute, those leaves there... but it distracts me and as I have photophobia it means trouble to my eyes. But, I prefer to review here!
This chapter was long and very good. I loved to read Lindomiel dealing with the dwarves, especially when she was showing them her Queen ring. It was fab, your descriptions are always good. Amoneth is getting so boring! How can she stills contradict Thranduil in public and worse: in front of dwarves! She needs to hear something really soon. At least Lindomiel sent her away... in time. I believe she could have done worse damages to Thranduil's dealings with the dwarves.
And that elven woman... Valar! She is a demon, as Thranduil said. Disrespectful and extremely rude. But I think she will end up moving with the King. After all, he did not give her much options... she moves or she dies!
The dwarves interaction with the elves were hilarious! I don't know why, but they always are. And the way you make Thranduil and Lindomiel talk to them makes the whole thing elves x dwarves more interesting.
Now, about the caves, the esmerald thing reminded me of something very, very similar that happened here in Brazil some hundreds of years ago. The portuguese were looking for gold and they thought they had found tons and tons of it in a small city called Vila Rica (something like Rich Village) but they discovered it was not actually gold. It was a rock that had the same bright when it was on the rock, thought it was not gold - people called it fake-gold or fools' gold, because it was actually black. Then they called the city Ouro Preto (Black Gold). But they ended up finding the damn gold they looked for in the city. I actually visited one mine that is now opened to visitation - of course it has no gold and it is abandoned for years - and it was very fun. It reminded me of that. So tell Thranduil he can find more that fake esmeralds there!!! Gosh, and I still remember those things from school... ahahah!!!
I am so, so curious to know about these men the elves found!! Don't tell me this is trouble for Thranduil. And, I promise, one last thing: I can't wait to read silly Amoneth visiting the caves!!!
Author's reply
Hi again, Brazgirl! Yes, I can see where the background would be more difficult if you have photophobia. White is easier. But you cannot beat the review function here. It is the best of all sites.
I had fun with Lindomiel and Thranduil and the dwarves. I like dwarves. They're pretty cool. And I thought hearing the dwarves talk about the caves might help Lindomiel be happier with the idea of living in them since she is curious and would listen.
Amoneth is going to get her just dues in the very next chapter so as soon as I can get it up, people can have fun watching her squirm a little. I'm glad I don't like her because my readers really don't. She's not supposed to be likable, so that works out ok. :)
The men won't be exactly trouble. They are a complication. :) You will see that in the next chapter too.
The fool's gold story is very funny. I think that happened some to people in here in the US in California too. Can you imagine how disappointed you'd be!
Thank you so much for the reviews. I appreciate them greatly.
French Pony
· 7 November 2004
· Chapter 10: The fortress of his people
Looks like everyone's gotten all shook up by this chapter. I'm sure they're all getting down on their knees and giving thanks for Lindomiel, who has managed to work her usual magic on the Dwarves. Her secret seems to be a genuine curiosity about and enjoyment of foreign things. She doesn't just listen politely when the Dwarves talk about how they could build a cave; she really seems to get interested and get some new ideas from them. People can tell when others are really interested, and it flatters them. And likely, her interest in what the Dwarves can do bolsters Thranduil's heart about this. He seems to need some emotional propping-up, and Lindomiel's growing enthusiasm is just the thing for him, for all he has ever wanted is to make her happy.
And of course, show the stone carving Elves a limestone cave with semi-precious gems in it, and they'll drag their families so fast you'll eat their dust. The forest is pretty, the Dwarves are being polite and understanding about finances, there may be a new source of income in them thar hills -- things are looking up. It's time for Thranduil to grin and make the best of a situation that isn't nearly as bad as it could have been.
That village leader, Maethorness, is quite a piece of work. She sounds like someone Thranduil could easily like, unless they happen to be on opposite sides of an issue. He handled her well, I think, because her objections are ones that he's already made and thought through. She can feel secure in knowing that he really understands her problems, and he can be all the more convincing because of it. We just need to show her the fresh new forest, and she'll come around.
Less likely for Amoneth, though. She's gone beyond being merely un-royal into being downright rude. Poor old Aradunnon is going to have to take a good long look at her, and I think that a few scales are going to fall from his eyes. He'll not be a happy camper for a while.
The very day they arrived, the scouts led the king and his party for a tour of the cave system. They moved from cavern to cavern, discussing that this cavern might be used for a Great Hall since it is large enough and close to the entrance and that one might be used for a kitchen since it is close to the underground river and smaller ones might be used for personal apartments or offices or what have you.
I think this paragraph needs a little work. You've got some shifty tenses, and the phrase "what have you" is a little too colloquial to match the rest of your writing style.
Author's reply
I think you are exactly right about Lindomiel. She is just curious and people like genuine interest. In my opinion, people with intellectual curiosity, people who are a little interested in most things, are the most fun to be around. I think the dwarves got a little taste of that and it worked out well for everyone involved. Thranduil does see the light at the end of the tunnel to some extent.
Maethorness is a real piece of work. She reminds me of a few people I know unfortunately. And you're right--Thranduil dealt with her as he did because he largely agrees with her complaints, he just has had more time to think them through.
Amoneth. She is consistant if nothing else.
LOL--will you look at that sentence! Is that one sentence? It's pretty bad isn't it. Yes, I will go have a look at that. :)
Author Reply: Fixed it--I took the lazy route and just made it way simpler. But geez--it was comically bad. It took the place of a longer description of a tour of the caves so it was the result of a fast cut right before posting. My beta never saw it and will make some comments when she sees your review and that 'sentence.' Thanks...and she thanks you too. :)
Bodkin
· 7 November 2004
· Chapter 10: The fortress of his people
I hope you don't mind if I join in on the grammar rant!! I have pet aversions - affect / effect, allude / elude and so on - but it's the apostrophe that usually gets me screaming at the screen. There was a best-selling book in the UK last winter called 'Eats, Shoots and Leaves' which said there should be a militant wing of the Apostrophe Society - I empathise totally. Especially it's - the number of times I tell the world that it's only has an apostrophe when it is a contraction of it is and that as a possessive pronoun it is apostrophe-free.
And I have a son who believes that every word ending in 's' requires an apostrophe. That is a test of mother-love, I can tell you!! (And that's hyperbole.)
Apologies for story-free rant.
Author's reply
It's quite alright (she says checking carefully to be sure she has used the apostrophe correctly). You are right though. I had a student tell me once (mind you this was a native spanish speaker and spanish doesn't have contractions so how did he know?) that 'it's' absolutely always has an apostrophe. I corrected his mistakes on a paper and he took me all the way to the Dean of Students trying to get his points back for those mistakes on the paper. The scary thing was, I had to prove to the Dean thatI was correct because he didn't believe me!!!!! AARRGGGHH!!!! That was one of the incidents that pushed me out of teaching. That was also the last class where I let the students write their papers in english.
I think I'd join the Militant Wing of many Pet Peave Societies at this point. I don't have a problem when people make mistakes--everyone types too fast sometimes or makes a little flub or just doesn't know--that's human. My problem comes in when people make them and then don't want any help correcting them. Aren't they embarassed to make them? Don't they want to do better? Blows my mind. :) Better still though are the people who are going to argue about their wrongness. By all that is holy they Know Everything and you Know Nothing. These people are truly lost.
Affect and effect are hard for me. I think I know that affect is a verb and effect is a noun but I have to look it up everytime I use them--I at least am aware of this one so I usually think to look them up. Allude and elude though--that's easy. Have seen it though.
:) I had a professor of linguistics that wrote his own language (spoke 8 languages in five different language families fluently / kind of a nut). He made it so that there were no words like there/their, no apostrophes/contractions, very simple punctuation, one sound per letter etc. It was great. Then we spent many a class day debating why the world would never adopt such a language no matter how efficient it was. Interesting class. (Did I mention my degree was in Spanish Linguistics and Lit--we had a lot of strange classes. For my Masters exam I wrote a whole three page essay on the evolution of a word no one really knows the evolution of--strange degree, but fun).
daw the minstrel
· 7 November 2004
· Chapter 10: The fortress of his people
Forgive me. I swear this is my last review of this chapter.
"Lay" means to put something somewhere. It is a transitive verb, meaning it always takes a direct object. I lay a book down on a table.
"Lie" means to recline. It is intransitive, meaning it never takes a direct object. I lie down on the bed. And if my aerobics teacher tell me to lay down on my mat one more time, I'm going to throw something at her. Usually, people say lay when they mean lie.
The real confusion comes when you start changing tenses. I always have to consult a dictionary to make sure I'm doing that right.
I lie down in present, but (unfortunately) I lay down in the past.
I lay the book down in the present, but I laid it down in the past.
I'm going to go work on my own chapter now and leave you alone!
Author's reply
LOL I am rolling and I do not mind at all. In fact, I love it. Having intelligent conversations is part of the fun of this for me. I cannot express to you how much I miss teaching literature and I would get back into it in a heart beat if I thought there was the slightest possibility of getting back into academics after a five year absence but we both know what the odds are on that...
You are right, it is when you start changing tenses that I lose it (I think I got the lose right though *grin*). Actually, it is a great relief to me that you have to look at a dictionary too.
I almost choked when I read the part about your aerobics teacher. Mine does that too and even I know she's using it wrong. I always say to her something about laying eggs (What am I suppposed to lay on my mat, an egg?) when she says it. She always looks at me funny and one day she will ask me why I say that everytime she says 'lay on your mats' and I'll explain that.
In seriousness, I think your examples up there help though, if I think about it. It is the past tense that causes me the confusion because lie becomes lay and then looks wrong and I was never sure that was really the proper past tense of to lie down. And laid--I think I didn't know that past tense. That helped and I'm glad you posted it.
But by all means do work on your chapter. I love your chapters. :)
Author Reply: PS--I think it's very funny that you just couldn't resist explaining lie/lay and it is a sign of what a good teacher you must be. I bet you are enthusiastic in class. I liked teachers who couldn't resist teaching.
daw the minstrel
· 7 November 2004
· Chapter 10: The fortress of his people
Oh god. "Lie" and "lay." Don't get me started. My beta has heard me raving about this particular little glitch.
Author's reply
:) LOL I am laughing and my husband is looking at me like I've lost my mind. I can hear your frustration in that one little sentence. (My particular peave is there/their/they're--that one is too easy to mess up).
You are a writing teacher, aren't you? I bet you see a lot of that. I got this really cool link from the Mirkwood Fanfiction Archive called Confused Words and it is pretty helpful (but I don't think anyone could explain lay/lie to me). I did a search in all the chapters of this fiction and found all the loose/loses (there was at least one in every chapter but one so I am so glad you mentioned it). I remember French Pony pointing that out to me once too. Maybe after fixing it almost 10 times, I will remember it this time. :) That is how we learn and I do enjoy learning from this. I am really very serious--point those things out. It only helps me improve.
daw the minstrel
· 7 November 2004
· Chapter 10: The fortress of his people
So Thranduil is affronted by the dwarves' "utter honesty," is he? LOL. Pot, meet kettle. I liked his understanding attitude toward Maethorness, though. He was really quite charitable toward her. And Hallion's point that leading in good times is easy is also a good one.
I love it when Lindomiel realizes that she can hear the song of Iluvatar in the rock of the caverns. I see you've been doing research on what minerals grow in limestone caves (and I'll bet you consulte the Atlas to know the caves were limestone). I love that kind of stuff.
P.S. Don't mind me, but I can't stop myself. You often have "loose" where you mean "lose." You can remember the difference because that double vowel (oo)makes the following "s" sound like "sss" instead of "zzz," which is what you get with a single vowel.
Author's reply
Yes, Thranduil is funny that way. Pot and kettle indeed. And he is very charitable towards Maethorness, but I think it is largely because she is voicing objections he has himself to this decision (she might learn to do it a bit more respectfully...). He just has had more time and experience to come to realize it is the only choice.
:) Yes, I love that Atlas, don't you? It is sooo cool. I do love that kind of stuff. I did do the research on gems in limestone caves. I used to live in Kentucky and we went to Mammoth all the time but it didn't have any copper in it so to the best of my knowledge, this type of gem isn't in it. I know Malachite is big in caves out west. It's fun to do this type of stuff and learn a little as you write! (lile you and your arrows--it adds to the stories for certain).
And ALWAYS point out to me when I do things like lose/loose and never apologize for it. English is not fully my native language--nothing really is, I was raised bilingually so I speak two languages poorly. :) I am always very, very happy to have things like that pointed out to me because I'd rather go fix them than have them hanging around and embarassing me for everytime someone reads them. :) Thank you very much for pointing it out and I'm going to go read for it right now. You are so lucky you are a rhetoric teacher. I bet you know when to use lay and lie too. That's the one that does me in completely--I don't even know the difference.
Lackwit
· 7 November 2004
· Chapter 10: The fortress of his people
This is a good gapfiller to explain Wood-Elves in a cavern (something that had always baffled me when I read the Hobbit years ago).
Love the dwarves-don't get enough of them in realistic group portrayals in fics (other than fighting O_o ). I am so glad you are showing how perfectly reasonably both elves and dwarves can conduct themselves when necessary instead of just fighting and insulting each other. Lindomiel in particular shines; I was afraid that she was going to be a bit superfluous over the course of the story (other than to pop out Legolas) but I like the touch of having her be interested in the other races of Arda. And now more Men on the scene- looking forward to how they interact with Thranduil.
Author's reply
Thanks Lackwit! I also thought it was bizarre that woodelves would live in caves when I read The Hobbit. I'm glad this is working for you as a bit of a gapfiller because that is exactly what I intended to do with this part of the story.
I like dwarves too and I agree enough people don't write them. I think they have just tons of potential in any scene. I'm not certain I exploit it well, but it is definitely there for someone who can get into their heads well. I'd love to read more good dwarf fictions.
I think dwarves and elves, even Sindarin elves, could get along perfectly reasonably. I especially thing that is the case given what is at stake for Thranduil. He has seen the dangers he faces and he is motivated.
I am very glad Lindomiel is turning out ok in your mind. I do see very clearly the potential for her to be Legolas' Mother and absolutely nothing else and that is very boring. I think Thranduil's wife should have a role helping to shape Greenwood.
I'm looking forward to the Men too. I actually added that part in the last weeks. It will be interesting to see how it works.
Thanks so much for the review.
Bodkin
· 7 November 2004
· Chapter 10: The fortress of his people
I would love to know all the possible ways that Amoneth could to get her just dues. I can think of a few options. Perhaps it should be like the twelve labours of Hercules. What a delightful decision you have in front of you. H'mm - ranging from 1. no dessert to 255. beheading.
Author's reply
LOL. That really cracked me up! I do not think beheading was on my list but it is amusing to contemplate. :) If I use one of the possibilities, the one I lean towards most, the outcome will lead Thranduil to wish he could behead her in later chapters. It is a tough choice. :)
Writing this is really fun for me. There is a 20th century genre in latin american lit called the BOOM novel (that's the actual spanish term--they used it because the genre just sort of exploded in popularity). Anyway, one of the characteristics of it is that it plays with time and order--the plots are not linear. When I write/edit this story, I feel like I am playing with a BOOM novel. There are a couple of places that are key points where I wrote a range of versions that subtly change later plot points and I never decided which one I liked most / thought was most believable etc. This is one of them. It's driving me mad really.
Thanks for the laugh!
Bodkin
· 7 November 2004
· Chapter 10: The fortress of his people
That Amoneth is clearly a very slow learner. What part of 'you will co-operate and uphold the family in public' does she not understand? I'm quite surprised that she has lasted a whole millennium really. Just as she was beginning to seem a bit more sensible, she goes and proves yet again that she is an idiot. Still, I suppose at least she is better that Dragonelleth, aka Maethorness.
How about putting Maethorness, Engwe and Amoneth into a big pit and seeing who comes out at the end of a month? (Could be Dragonelleth.)
I really like the Dwarves. And Lindomiel and the Dwarves. And the Dwarves and the caves. I hope the Doriath elves manage to overcome some of their prejudices and realise that there are Dwarves and Dwarves, just as there are Elves and Elves . . . and the idiot Amoneth.
Great chapter. Loved it.
Author's reply
:) Yes, I almost cringe reading this chapter myself. Amoneth is about to get it, though. I have several different versions of how she's going to get it written and I haven't decided which version to use, but she will get it. One cannot deny that she just isn't bright. Selfish. Very self-centered. And not bright.
Maethorness is a disgrace, isn't she. She makes another appearance in this story much later on and poor Legolas has to deal with her. I still laugh when I read what he does (I re-read it before posting this to make sure the two encounters are not too different and it cracked me up).
I like dwarves too. I think they are great. Thranduil and Hallion at least are doing ok with them. They might want to be thankful for them, I would think, after this chapter.
ghemstone
· 31 October 2004
· Chapter 9: He delved there a fortress
Another two wonderful chapters, and now i'm all caught up. I loved how you wrote Elrond, so giving and compassionate towards Thranduil and his plight in Erin Galen(sp?). Celeborn and especially Galadriel seemed mysterious, throwing glances at each other, as if they knew, or felt more than they were saying.
So Mithrandir and Radagast have been included in this tale, and i was happy to see them here, talk about playing with fire, indeed. Granted, i know next to nothing about The Brown, apart from that he spent time in or around Mirkwood and loved the forest (and i could be wrong about that too. Got to get a copy of The Unfinished Tales and The Silm), but i instantly liked him for the same reason Thranduil did.
Amoneth hasn't fulfilled her full potential yet i think. She does seem to be maturing, and grasping the full implications of all that is happening, but she still has a way to go yet. I hope before the end, that she will grow and become someone to be reckoned with, in regards to defending her family.
There was so much in these two chapters to love that this review has done them and you no justice.
I eagerly await more chapters, and i can't wait to see what Thranduil has to contend with next.
ghemstone
Author's reply
Thank you so much for another review. I needed a little perking up right now. I had to take my old dog to the emergency vet this afternoon and she's is staying overnight so its been a rough day. It was nice to come home to a such a wonderful review.
I like having Thranduil interect with Elrond, Celeborn and especially Galadriel. There is just so much potential in those relationships. And yes, when I sat down to write this, I was very happy to figure out that Gandalf and Radagast would have to have a part. I think the wizards are a lot of fun. I especially like Radagast even though he has such a small part in canon.
No, Amoneth still has some growing to do. I think there will be aspects of her role in the last part of this story that will both satisfy and disappoint you with regards to her actions. :)
Thank you so much for the reviews. I really appreciate them always. It's amazing how they can perk me up.
ghemstone
· 31 October 2004
· Chapter 8: None knew whence they were
Hi. I feel firstly that i have to apologies for not reviewing sooner. I started reading part 1 when there were already a few chapters written, and didn't think to let you know how much your story had ensnared me. In a way it could be taken as a compliment, because i find that, the more talanted the author, the harder i find it to review.
I love stories which give the characters and emotions time to grow and develope,while being engaging and entertaining when this is happening. This fic has certainly done that, and on top of that you have created a wonderful storyline with brilliantly thought out, and developed O.Cs.
It goes without saying that you have created a totally believable Thranduil, with all the fierceness, pride and almost arrogance that people have come to expect from him, but also a less written about softer side that few, but his closest see.
This fic is one of my absolute favourites, and i can't wait to read more. Thanks for sharing this wonderful tale, and i hope to see more soon.
ghemstone
Author's reply
Wow, thank you very much! It is always such a treat to get reviews like this. I am so glad to know you are enjoying the story. I loved the character of the Elvenking when I read The Hobbit (there seemed to be so many sides to him) and the more I read of Tolkien's other works, the more curious I became about his story. So I had a lot of fun writing this thing. I also like stories that explore the growth of the characters I find interesting, so I guess that it what I naturally write. I think it is really fascinating to think about what made the characters do the things they do in canon. There are so many interpretations so this is just mine. :)
I'm glad you like how Thranduil comes across in this. The way you describe him is exactly how I want him to appear so I'm happy I accomplished that in someone's mind.
I know what you mean about finding it hard to review. I started reading LotR fan fiction around January of this year and I read for months without really reviewing anything. Other fandoms I read don't really have a review function on their sites so it wasn't something I was accustomed to. Then I read two particularly fantastic stories that I had to review and that got me started on it. I didn't really do it regularly until recently. The more involved I get in the LotR fanfiction, the more I realize how much I miss teaching lit. So this has become my substitute! I love talking with people about lit and some of this LotR fanfiction is better written than supposedly 'great lit' that I used to teach.
Enough babbling. Thank you so much for the review! I appreciate them very much anytime folks feel inspired to take their valuable time to write them. I hope you continue to enjoy.
daw the minstrel
· 30 October 2004
· Chapter 9: He delved there a fortress
Yay! Amoneth gets a dose of the truth. We'll see if she can live by her promise.
You continue to impress me with your presentation of politics, this time those of the Woodland Realm itself and also of Thranduil's council. And your Thranduil is such a good leader.
Author's reply
Yes, I had fun giving Amoneth a little slap of reality. We shall see, indeed.
Thranduil is a good leader. I'm glad that I have managed to portray him that way. I sincerely think he must have been a good leader at this point in history. Moving a whole realm from south of the mountains to those caves would have been a major undertaking. You couldn't just wake up one day and say, "Gee, I think I'll make these people all move."
Thanks for the review!
Brazgirl
· 30 October 2004
· Chapter 9: He delved there a fortress
This was a great chapter. I love to read the elves reaction about moving to the caves. Lindomiel certainly surprised me and that must have hurt Thranduil, poor soul. I hope to read more of this soon!!!
Author's reply
Hi Brazgirl! I was surprised to see you here at Stories of Arda and not FF. What a nice surprise. Yes, I imagine that Lindomiel's reaction probably did hurt. At the very least it surprised him. We will definitely see more 'reaction' in the chapters to come. I am hoping to post at least one more chapter this weekend. I would prefer to post two because next week at work we are going to begin switching out almost 1000 old computers for new ones. I will be lucky even see fanfiction let alone be able to post it. Thanks for the review here!
French Pony
· 30 October 2004
· Chapter 9: He delved there a fortress
Thranduil does indeed have his work cut out for him. Tirion has the right idea here. Pictures, and lots of them. What he might want to do is redraw those pictures to show happy villages with chirpy little elflings running around in them, really sell the people on the new, wild forest they get to live in. The old area is used up, dull, unexciting. But the new frontier, wow! New trees, fresh supplies of plants, what seems like a better water source, a new opportunity to strike out . . . how can they refuse? If the U.S. government could use the Homestead Act of 1862 to con massive amounts of citizens into trying to farm in North Dakota, surely Thranduil can make a similar bet with his people. Get them to file a claim, bet them a small amount of valuables that they can't live on it for five years and watch them do it with enthusiasm.
People are always afraid of the unknown. But I think that once they see the area they'll be moving to, and Thranduil and Lindomiel lay eyes on those caves, they'll feel better about it. I know I felt much better about going to grad school once my friend and I went to Grad School Town for a visit and we looked around and saw the place and found me an apartment and tried a few local cafes.
Really. Who knew that being a King required so much salesmanship? I suppose that if you are the adopted ruler of a very self-willed people, you do have to convince them of everything before they do it. It's like the hardest parts of being the Queen of England and the President combined.
I currently have more than a few doubts about the marriage of Aradunnon and Amoneth, and I'm open to taking bets on their chances. I know of one young lady who desperately needs an education before she gets married. Perhaps Dieneryn ought to institute a Take Your Prospective Daughters-In-Law To Work Day. Amoneth still doesn't seem to have any real idea of what it is that Aradunnon does. And he should take her seriously when she points out that if she moves north, she'll never see her family again. The Elves are effectively ceding the woods between themselves and Lorien to the Orcs, and if they move, they'll be cut off completely from Lorien. That's a big sacrifice for Amoneth right there.
Author's reply
We can only hope these elves do better than those poor Homesteaders did. If I remember my schooling, only one in ten made it. I agree with what you said about being afraid of the unknown. Or at least unwilling to confront while one is still comfortable That is a good part of the problem here.
I actually watched a really interesting PBS program about Queen Elizabeth a couple nights ago and one of the comments her sister (is it Princess Margaret? I don't keep up with the royals in Britain too much) made is that monarchs rule with the consent of the people. She elaborated on that some and it made me think--that really is true. If you are a monarch that does not rely on the consent of the people, then in fact you are a dictator. I think that any elves would expect to be treated as enlightened citizens. To some extent you have sell your ideas. You couldn't really force them to move. Especially wood elves. I do think that until the shadow actually fell over the southern forest, they would not be highly motivated. And if Thranduil didn't have a plan by the time it did, they would have blamed him and not respected him. So, I'm kind of playing this with that thought in mind. I do not think Thranduil's position would have been very enviable. Wouldn't want to be him.
You should probably have doubts about Amoneth. She is not the most oustanding member of the family. And you are right, they will be completely separated from Lorien. He asked if she wanted to stay in Greenwood. Question is, does she understand the question. It doesn't seem like she understands too much. She'll get better. Will it be enough?
Bodkin
· 30 October 2004
· Chapter 9: He delved there a fortress
Amoneth could so easily be another Nimrodel, couldn't she? In fact, I think she must have spent years in Lorien taking Nimrodel-lessons. But, fortunately, it's not in the Oropher blood-line to be an Amroth. Aradunnon has let her get away with brattishness for a millennium, but at last she has seen him put his foot down - and she seems to be responding to it. Now he just needs to keep it down long enough to draw a line.
Poor Thranduil. A less than straightforward task, to convince his people to move so far north and occupy a bunch of caves. I think he'll manage, though. Just a suspicion I have. It's a good thing he is the boss, or else they would still have been arguing the case when Sauron led his orcs up to them. They would have had to ask him to hang on a bit before they had time to go and fight.
Lindomiel must have been rather worked up to react like that - but the idea of underground must be rather scary to a tree-dweller. At least she is open to new experiences and will give it a gair trial. And if they want help from the dwarves, she is just the right person to get round them.
Good stuff.
Author's reply
Yes, knowing this was coming up was one of the things that made me laugh about your current story. They do sound a lot like Nimrodel and Amroth here--and remember, Mithrellas was one of the ellyth dancing with Lindomiel and Amoneth and Hallion at the New Years festival in Lorien. I imagine they did all know Nimrodel at least a little. Lindomiel refers to her when talking about Marti to Thranduil. Fortunately in this case, the ending will be different. Mostly, but you will wait a little while for that.
I think a decision to make such a radical change (moving to caves) to the younger elves, who are essentially wood elves, must have been a bit of a shocker though. It is not easy to picture wood elves living in a cave/fortress. But Thranduil would have jumped on such an opportunity, not just because he saw Menegroth, but because he knows such a thing might be needed if he is going to defend his people against Sauron. I really can see him saying 'Here, and no further,' after all the times he has moved in his life and that stronghold is what makes that possible.
I think your suspicion is right. He will manage to persuade them. :) Thank goodness he is a strong leader. I am not certain just anyone could have kept these elves alive.
French Pony
· 26 October 2004
· Chapter 8: None knew whence they were
Sorry I'm late. I just struggled out from under a bear of a homework assignment, which chewed up six hours in the library on Sunday.
Can I borrow your Thranduil this evening? I want to buy that Elf a drink. Of course the only sane thing to do when you think Elrond's guests are Maiar is to ask them about it, for who knows better than they do? All these other Elves just pussyfoot around the real issues, but not our Thranduil. He knows that the first best way to get an answer is to ask a question. You gotta wonder what the other Elves would ever do without him. Probably they'd wait until the War of the Ring, and Elrond would hold his council and say, "Welcome everybody. This here is Frodo the Ringbearer, Aragorn the would-be King of Gondor, and this chap here is Gandalf. He's just this guy, you know?" And nobody would pay any attention to what Gandalf had to say, and that would be a major disaster.
So props to Thranduil for asking questions. I'd do the same thing, were I in his shoes.
He is a good leader. He knows when to fight and when fighting is useless. But he's still open to exploring all possible avenues of hope to the bitter end before deciding to retreat. I think his decision not to waste Elrond's entire army was a good one. It's just too much to ask, and preserving Elrond's people and his friendship will be better for Thranduil and the Wood Elves in the long run. Even if Elrond's army won against Dol Guldur, they'd probably lose so many people so far from home that the alliance would be worthless anyway.
Author's reply
You know, I saw this review appear in my email at work and I said--don't read it. Don't do it. Wait until you are at home in private. Don't humiliate yourself again and make your coworkers think you are insane. But, as usual, I succumb to temptation. I love your vision of the Council of Elrond. "He's this guy, you know." Can I add 'kewl' to that description? Cringe. I am giggling and my lab assistant is looking at me nervously and gauging if she can make it to the door before I snap.
Of course Thranduil is going to ask. And I think any of the rest of them would have too. I also think they get a kick out of Thranduil's directness. I would. It can be funny sometimes being around people like that.
I agree with what you said about Thranduil's decisions. He has explored all the options as a good leader would and he sees what his only choice is. Now he just has to pick a place to move and that will be that. Hmmm. Do you think it will be that easy? :)
If it takes me a week to post a chapter, you have the right to take your time reviewing. :) Getting reviews is a privilege to me and I appreciate every review I get. And I definitely know what you mean--I do not miss graduate school at all. Maybe you should take Thranduil out for a drink tonight.
Thanks so much for the review!