Tigger
· 20 October 2005
· Chapter 4: 4: Who for Ringbearer?
Oh my...I just want to pick up Frodo and hold him. I can so empathize w/the emotions he's having. I have a kidney transplant and I was given it nearly 13 years ago, but there are times when I wonder why it was given to me. That kind of guilt never really goes away, but you learn to deal w/it. To see Frodo questioning the same things...It really does hit close to home. What really hurts though, is the knowledge Frodo never was able to deal w/it and stay in Middle Earth w/those he loved.
This is an excellent story Larner. Looking forward to the next chapter.
Author's reply
Aha--another kidney patient, as was my husband. Never got to transplant stage, though.
Survival guilt can be so devastating, as is all of post-traumatic stress syndrome. Frodo did his best to live with it all, but was still unable to reintegrate himself into life in the Shire. How much was physical and how much was emotional Tolkien himself, of course, didn't tell us; most of the time after the return to the Shire, save for the Scouring itself, is told so fleetingly, on a strictly superficial level. Frodo gets sick twice a year, and does his best to hide it--or at least he thinks he does. Then he leaves, allowing Sam to think he's going to Rivendell while in reality he's going West.
Am so glad you find this so believable and in keeping with your own experience as well as apparently with what you expected of Frodo's.
Thanks so much for your comments.
Radbooks
· 20 October 2005
· Chapter 4: 4: Who for Ringbearer?
Loved the fact of Legolas helping Frodo dress and Frodo hating it... we always hate to be helped! Very interesting about the Ring influencing Elrond and him allowing Isildur to leave with the Ring. It is something some of my friends and I have discussed in the past. Why did Elrond let him leave? My thought had always been that Isildur had a free will and Elrond wasn't going to take it by force - Isildur was his distant relative and all. But this is an intriguing thought!
Author's reply
I recently saw the idea of Elrond himself being influenced by the Ring to keep him from interfering with Isildur in someone else's discussion of that moment. It was an idea I'd touched on in my mind but not explored deeply. But there had to be some reason why Elrond kept his own hands scrupulously off the Ring beyond mere knowledge of its nature. And if he had felt Its power there in the Sammath Naur paralyzing him so that Isildur could walk out with It in his hand, that would give him excellent reason to speak authoritively of the dangers It posed.
And it's hard to accept dependancy so late in life; Frodo, one of the most intelligent and competent Hobbits ever born is having to be dressed like a bairn? It must have been quite a blow to an already fragile ego.
Radbooks
· 20 October 2005
· Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
Such a mixture of emotions in this chapter. I smiled when Frodo was speaking with Eomer and he didn't know who he was and all of the horse symbols on his clothing. I was relieved and happy when he was speaking with Aragorn and Aragorn was able to bring comfort to him, and Frodo was able to get a little peace for a short time. And then... and then, I was moved to tears during the whole conversation with Gandalf about how the Ring influenced Frodo and how he was tempted to take lasses by force. It was a tough section, but well done.
Author's reply
It had to have been an overwhelming experience--being led out before thousands of strangers and being hailed in so many languages; sitting on a throne with ones friend who's meant to be king kneeling before them; changing into princely garments as though they were princes of Elves or Men; wearing mail, swords, and circlets to a feast....
Frodo must really have felt out of his depth, and to be expected to be courteous with perfect strangers like that and to try to figure out who these folks are and keep them straight when there eating outside and all must have been so confusing! It's a humorous and at the same time sad moment, with Frodo so overwhelmed. To finally be able to connect with Aragorn must have been a relief.
I try to be realistic and yet not crude; I've kept insisting through my tales that the Ring burnt out the capacity for romantic love, particularly as it understood only domination. To see how it might have influenced him to try to become like its master, and then give it up as a bad job and seek to suppress sexual attraction in the end because Frodo just wasn't the type to be sadistic and grasping seemed logical, considering the Ring's and Sauron's shared nature.
Looking forward to your next chapter, of course....
Radbooks
· 20 October 2005
· Chapter 2: 2: Honored
Oh, another excellent chapter. How often we fight within ourselves about whatever tasks we have been given and we think we have failed at them and we find all the little things we did wrong or should have done better. (And I know that I tend to over think things like Frodo is doing here!) I like the idea of the sword as a symbol of protection, because of course it is, but I hadn't thought of it in quite those terms before. I'm off to read the next chapters!
Author's reply
I was trying to think why they would insist Frodo wear a sword that night, considering how he obviously felt about it; and this is what came out. The sword and the mithril shirt are part of what he was meant to wear, I have always thought.
I, too, overanalyze things, and have always suspected Frodo was a kindred spirit there.
Glad that this has stimulated thought.
TithenFeredir
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 4: 4: Who for Ringbearer?
Hmmm, as much as I sympathise with Frodo I think it was good for Legolas to be a little stern with him. It's an intersting idea for "greater" characters to be relieved that Frodo spared them having to take the ring. ~TF
Author's reply
In dealing with the Ring, Frodo WAS the greater character; and truly great folk have a good idea of their own limitations and will admit them when it is appropriate as Legolas did here. I think Frodo needed to hear all this, and for him to realize Legolas and the others have reason to believe that he's just as good in his way as the Elven prince is or as Aragorn is.
Thanks for staying with the story.
TithenFeredir
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
Frodo's conflicting feelings about the his "hero" status and the food at the feast felt familiar. I think it recalls the feelings of anyone who has experienced illness and the often unwanted sympathy and attention that goes with it. It is rather heartbreaking for Frodo to feel so tainted, (or maybe ruined is a better word?), by his exposure to the ring. ~TF
Author's reply
Thank you for recognizing this. Too much too soon, while Frodo is still far from fully recovered from what he's been through. And what the Ring must have made him imagine and consider must have been horrid, and of course he'd feel tainted by it all, I'd think.
Thanks for the feedback.
PIppinfan1988
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
That was deep...I think this goes along with what PJ had Gandalf say in the films--he told Frodo that evil would be drawn to him, from within and without.
Frodo's thoughts about wanting a feast even though he knew he couldn't handle so much food goes hand-in-hand with children who have starved for food. They tend to hoard despite the fact it might spoil before they have the chance to eat it. Well done again!
Pippinfan
Author's reply
It was directly inspired by the experience of Holocaust survivors. Many had to have either a full loaf of bread handy at all times, or a cup of water to hand everywhere they went or something similar.
And my one foster child who had been given poor nutrition by his birth mother and who'd experienced more abandonments as a child that you could believe did just what you described.
Frodo is already manifesting symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder.
Inkling
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
Oh dear! This is one frustrated hobbit, poor lad. Somehow this conversation makes me wonder all sorts of improper things, like…is Gandalf a virgin??? Ahem…anyway, a very sad and thought-provoking chapter, and an interesting progression from the hints in your earlier stories that the Ring had robbed Frodo of all desire for lasses.
Ps--loved the feast, and the bit with Eomer: king of somewhere, he thought; horses or something. Hee hee!
Author's reply
Being Sauron's Ring, I certainly can't see it allowing a typical Hobbit marriage with cheer and sharing and love of children. It would react, I think, very strongly to the emotional components of sexual activities of its bearers, and would either prefer they become sadistic OR rob them of sexual awareness completely, perhaps to punish them for not taking It to Its master.
Frodo was solitary enough It probably didn't worry too much about his friendships, particularly when It was mostly dormant; but a marriage would mean Frodo would be around one with whom he has a strong relationship most of the 24/7. I would think It would work either to turn Its bearer into a sadistic, monomaniacal patriarch or to withdraw from the family except at times when he would come to all demanding and arbitrary and probably abusive.
And it would want the physical relationship to be fearful on the part of the partner to its bearer, I would think. As such, I really think it would encourage thoughts of rape and sadistic activities; and once it found that this wasn't flying with the bearer it would do its best to shut down sexual awareness except when it could further encourage more possessive and demanding images and activities.
And glad you enjoyed Frodo's response to Eomer--I can see it after a confusing day--"I've never seen this guy in my life; my shoulder hurts; I want to go back to bed or something; why am I supposed to be polite to him? Oh, yeah, he's a brother King to Aragorn, and now his friend, I must suppose....."
SlightlyTookish
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 4: 4: Who for Ringbearer?
I really enjoyed the conversation between Frodo and Legolas, especially the discussion about who would have taken the ring next and what would have happened to them. That's exactly what Frodo needs to hear, and how wise of Legolas to know it :)
Author's reply
Legolas has been around long enough, I think, to evaluate just how others might have responded to the Ring working on them, once he had personal experience with how it tried to work on him. And, yes, Frodo needs to hear this, and realize there was every reason in the world for him to be the best one to serve as Ringbearer. A Hobbit; no precedent of Sauron dealing with Hobbits in the past save Gollum, who'd already been twisted completely from his original nature by five centuries worth of experience with the Ring; a basically passive individual with no pretensions toward power over others; one with an extraordinarily strong sense of social and personal responsibility, and who'd been turned off the path of exploiting others (in my version of him, at least) years earlier after an encounter with Maggot's dogs and one who apparently was Radagast. He's been groomed to be the Ringbearer, I think, at least since the death of his parents; and in my version was literally born to do so as well.
Thanks for the feedback.
Antane
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
Oh, our poor Frodo! To not only be a victim of a brutal and repeated rape himself, but to have such feelings fill him whenever he looked at a lass. Pity and horror indeed. I hope Gandalf has convinced him those feelings aren't coming from himself. I've read other authors saying once he got the Ring he didn't desire lasses but it's never convinced me why that should be. But oh, my poor darling...
Author's reply
Personally I suspect the only rape Frodo experienced was the mental and spiritual ravishment of his mind by the Ring, but heaven knows that would be brutal enough to survive. Once the Ring fully awoke when it realized the Nazgul were hunting its bearer, I would think being with the Ring would be similar to being handcuffed to a supremely verbally abusive family member coming down off meth and having no way of ridding yourself of the situation.
But it would not want an equal partnership in a sexual relationship--it would push for a sadistic one, I'd think. And, once it realized its bearer was having no truck with such things I think it would do its best to suppress sexuality so as to punish him.
Frodo's nature was not given to domination, and had he been such a person he'd have been totally inappropriate as the Ringbearer. As I came to write this story I found myself wanting to explore the reasons WHY Frodo no longer usually saw women as attractive once the Ring came to him; and why the Ring would actively suppress sexual attraction.
Dreamflower
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 4: 4: Who for Ringbearer?
I like this of Legolas telling Frodo what he needs to know. We seldom think of Legolas as having been tempted by the Ring, so it is very interesting to hear what he thinks about that.
I also like the way he has kept Frodo talking and listening the whole time, until he has finished the task of dressing him...
Author's reply
Yes, Frodo needed to hear this from someone who hasn't been so emotionally involved with him as Gandalf, Sam, and Aragorn; and I think the Ring would have tried working on everyone in the Fellowship at least once in a while. It might have focused primarily on Boromir as the most vulnerable, but I think it would have tried the defenses of all, looking for an easier nut to crack than the Hobbit carrying it.
And I agree--keeping Frodo distracted did ease helping him dress when he was still pretty shaky.
Thanks, Dreamflower.
Linda Hoyland
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 4: 4: Who for Ringbearer?
This was a touching scene and I liked how tactful Legolas was towards Frodo,distracting him while he dressed him.
Author's reply
Keep him distracted, and we can get a shaky Ringbearer dressed before he has a chance to allow his foolish pride in self-sufficiency get in the way.
Glad you appreciated it, Linda. Thanks for the response.
harrowcat
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 4: 4: Who for Ringbearer?
Oh wise and gentle Legolas. Good to see that he can be sharp and to the point too. We all need to hear the truth, perhaps especially when we least want to.
Author's reply
The Ring has kept Frodo very isolated, and he needs to get past that to seeing that others realize perhaps better than he does what things might have come to had someone else tried to carry that foul thing. And, yes, sharp and to the point indeed! :-> Glad you appreciated that, and I appreciate the pun!
shirebound
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 4: 4: Who for Ringbearer?
This story is so very insightful and poignant. I hope that -- sooner rather than later -- the gentle, loving, wise counsel around Frodo helps him to understand that he did his best... and that's all anyone can ever do.
Author's reply
Unfortunately post-traumatic stress disorder isn't an easy condition to overcome, and there is a distinct physical aspect complicating things. And as Frodo eventually says, he knows in his head the words he hears are true, but getting the heart to accept them isn't as easy.
Thanks for the compliments, Shirebound.
French Pony
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 4: 4: Who for Ringbearer?
I think it's a good idea for Frodo to have this conversation with Legolas. The two of them aren't as personally invested in each other as Frodo is with Aragorn or Gandalf or the other Hobbits. I think that, in a way, Frodo is freer to exchange the truth with Legolas than with the others because of that. Legolas has less of a vested interest in coddling Frodo than the others, and so gives him the cold hard truth about his own weakness before the Ring. I think Frodo really needed to hear that, and Gimli is the only other one who would have told him.
Author's reply
Yes, you've expressed it perfectly, French Pony. And you've clarified the realization in my own mind WHY Frodo needed to hear from Legolas now. Legolas is letting him know that he was as vulnerable in his way as Aragorn was, a thought Frodo probably hadn't thought of before, and Frodo can't just wave away his words with "but he's only saying that to make me feel better" as he might with Sam or Aragorn or Gandalf.
Thanks so much for your input, as it has further inspired me.
Kitty
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 4: 4: Who for Ringbearer?
I enjoyed this chapter very much because I've got a soft spot for Legolas as well after reading so many fics about him and the twins, and I love Frodo/Legolas-fics!
Well, it makes sense what Legolas said. He is right - the ring would have claimed everyone else much earlier, and all would've been lost. I hope Frodo is able to accept that.
Author's reply
I agree, Kitty, Frodo needed to realize this now.
He saw the fighting which could have broken out had he not said he would take it as to who would and wouldn't and shouldn't carry the thing; to know that those he'd not become so emotionally close to but had never spoken about how the Ring was working on them have realized just how vulnerable they were is definitely something he needs to hear now.
He's coming to accept it as the others begin to break their silence on how the Ring was working on them.
Kitty
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
With every chapter I want more to hug Frodo and to comfort him, as did Aragorn. I loved this scene.
Frodo's confession about his feelings for lasses was quite disturbing. Poor hobbit, it's truly horrible to have to live with this! I am so glad Gandalf was there for him and could ease his troubled mind at least a bit. It is no wonder Frodo couldn't really heal in ME if he had to struggle with reminders like this!
Author's reply
Frodo was deliberately written as suffering from shell shock after the rescue from Mordor, and I know I recognized it the first time I read it when I was thirteen-fourteen years old, and that the reason he left Middle Earth had to do with him no longer able to fit into normal life.
PTSD is not an easy condition to live with--you're going along mostly fine, and then, BAM! You find yourself facing some reminder of then and it pushes you right back into feeling you're back there in the survival situation. It's not just Frodo who's confused about what he's experiencing, but those surrounding him as well. They are beginning to recognize there are triggers to the withdrawals, but still aren't certain what and why they are.
The feast was one of the triggers; the being aware of eyes on him at it and just after it triggers the dream of being searched for by THE EYE and the Nazgul; and he's just plain overwhelmed by too much stimulation after a morning of surprise.
And the realization of how the Ring was trying to shape his sexuality to resemble that of Its master and then suppressing it when he didn't go along with it must have been shocking! That, however, may prove one of the easier hurdles to get over. The experience he's been through has broken his health, too.
Andrea
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 4: 4: Who for Ringbearer?
What a fascinating insight into Frodo's thoughts!
A continuous struggle of emotions: joy and sadness, fear and pride, even a bit of selfishness and (of course) a lot of stubborness.
What is the point of being called back into the world, when all you can feel is pain and guilt? Everyone is telling him, that he was called back to feel joy again. But I think, at the moment he's simply not able to do so.
I wished that voice in his mind would grow stronger and would relieve him of his overwhelming feeling of guilt.
I particularly liked the conversation with Legolas here. Even the Elf prince admitted, that he would not have been able to resist the Ring. That should help Frodo to see clearer. I really hope so!
Great work, Larner!
Author's reply
Yes, Frodo is too new to his recovery to be able to know joy as yet, and I see him indeed with that maelstrom of emotions that you've listed, and probably more besides. And it was the Elf's insight Frodo needs right now as he realizes just how much those who kept their mouths shut about the Ring's call on them are now letting him know that they realize how fortunate they were not to have decided to take it.
Thanks so much for the feedback.
Lily
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
Slightly Tookish recommended this story to me and, though my online time is limited, I could not restist - and I'm glad I couldn't.
This is the most insightful story at Cormallen I have ever read. You capture Frodo's character so well. I also like how Gandalf is speaking to him in his mind and that he is using "Iorhael" rather than the common "Frodo".
Great work!!
I'm looking forward to read more!
Author's reply
Thank you. I'm not certain it is Gandalf speaking in Frodo's mind, though. And I try to consider how Frodo would have reacted had this been a "real" experience.
Thanks so much for the feedback.
Ami
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
Again, a very poignant chapter. I liked the way you associated virginity and innocence and Frodo's feelings of loosing one, but not the other. I agree very much with Frodo's feelings of the feast and all the celebrations after. I think you are right that The Professor made a bit of a mistep with this so soon after Frodo's awakening. I've disliked the scene where Frodo is made to bear a sword instead of someone actually understanding his need for not wishing to wear one. Even with all the praise, Frodo is feeling the lack of empathy and compassion which perhaps is the greatest thing he needs to heal.
Author's reply
There's a fair amount of compassion around him, but not as much empathy as he needs, probably. But to go from immediately waking to acclamation to feast just seems rushed. And I've wanted to explore WHY Frodo didn't wish to wear a sword this day, and the reasons for doing so anyway.
I've long felt that for Frodo to have remained a bachelor was less likely than for Bilbo to do so; having lost his parents so young would lead so many of tempraments similar to Frodo's to marry the earlier so as to give themselves back the feeling of the family lost, and to confirm that they are carrying on with the gift of life.
Usually we do think of innocence and virginity going hand in hand; but I'm remembering two books I read, _Soul Catcher_ by Frank Herbert in which a young boy who is very innocent is still deemed an acceptable sacrifice after he's been initiated into sexual congress because he remains an innocent individual, and Joy Chant's _Red Moon, Black Mountain_ in which a young man loses his innocence and mourns its loss, but is assured that what he has gained in wisdom and compassion and empathy more that make up for it. I think Frodo needs to accept this truth as much in his heart as in his mind, but it's not an easy lesson to learn.
Glad you have decided to give this one a try, considering how precious your online time is.
Thanks for the feedback.
Inkling
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 2: 2: Honored
“The gift of analysis” gave me a chuckle…that wouldn’t be anything like mortality, would it? Gift or Doom, depending on how you look at it. I sometimes think I’m burdened with a little too much of that gift myself!
A nice exploration of ideas that Tolkien only hinted at in LOTR, and just a bit further in Letters.
Poor Frodo never really was a simple hobbit, was he?
Author's reply
Almost any gift we have can become a burden if we let it--and Frodo has been stimulated by the Ring to allow his mind to run a bit wild, leaving him analyzing everything automatically any more. We all need to just let go and let things happen without looking for hidden meanings. As I've suggested before, the Ring's most effective tactic was to use the person's greatest gifts against them.
And glad you appreciate how the Letters helped inspire this work.
harrowcat
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
Oh this is making me shiver Larner - both with pity and horror. It is getting very dark and deep. My reaction, of intense hatred and anger at Sauron and the Ring and increasing honour for Frodo that he could control such strong feelings, when I saw how you have taken Frodo's apparent lack of interest in the lasses that one step further makes me realise just how involved I have become with Middle Earth. It is very easy to see how Frodo becomes suicidal! I can seem the most logical step to put an end to everyone's suffering and done from a desire to stop being the, self-perceived, cause of other people's distress.
Author's reply
We're right there alongside Sam and Aragorn, hating the Ring and its foul master for what was done to one of the gentlest and most giving individuals ever created.
It becomes ever easier to understand why Frodo needs the buffer provided by being on the threshold of the Undying Lands and with the Valar nearby to allow him proper healing. Every time he almost lets go of one of the problems he faces while in Middle Earth, he gets a curveball thrown at him, and it all too often slips right back into place once more.
Periantari
· 19 October 2005
· Chapter 1: 1: Unconsummated
What a sweet scene~ i love the description, i love how you capture both Frodo and Gandalf's feelings.
And the end to the chapter was my favorite.
Frodo reached out, and the Wizard gathered him into his embrace, felt the tears of mixed relief and regret against the breast of his white robes.
:*( :*) awwww~! I can't wait to read more... ::goes on to second chapter::
Author's reply
Waking up had to have been hard to do, for all he'd calmed down by the time Sam awoke also. And am glad you like how I express the feelings the two of them have.
I'll admit it, I enjoy some good Frodo angst from time to time, and like to explore how he'd have begun recovery, only to realize there was no going back after all.
Thanks for the feedback.
Linda Hoyland
· 18 October 2005
· Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
I just loved your Beautiful Frodo and Aragorn moment in a chapter full of good things.I had never before realised just how odd it is to take two invalids straight out of bed to a feast !You describe Frodo's mixed feelings beautifully and the evil of the Ring.
I also like the theme of loss of innocence,a theme which will become prominent in my current story soon.Many thanks for your much appreciated review.
Author's reply
This is one of the places Tolkien sort of skipped rational progression--the King has healing hands, so they sleep for two weeks and appear to be well again and go right into the feast--except even before they leave Minas Tirith we begin to get hints Frodo isn't maybe as well as he seems as he gladly accepts the stargem from Arwen and fingers it frequently, particularly when stressed or ill. So it appears that Frodo is keeping his deteriorating condition from everyone, but can't quite hide it from Arwen and probably from the Elves and Gandalf.
If the stargem helped once he was separated from the Elves and Gandalf and all, what did he find helpful before he got it? So I will play with that as the story goes on.
Armariel
· 18 October 2005
· Chapter 3: 3: Feast Not Enjoyed
Lovely....I like to see Frodo be a bad patient once in a while, I don't want to see him so sweet and passive alllll the time! Great to see Aragorn show up *gggg*
Author's reply
I doubt Frodo was very sweet or passive a good deal of his time of recovery--certainly I doubt he was later when he was trying to decide whether to go to Elevenhome.
And Aragorn will be a frequent visitor during Frodo's recovery, I suspect.
Thanks for the review!