Camp.6311
· 18 November 2015
· Chapter 10: Come In, Go Forth
"It will not feed two hundred long, but it will provide us some small buffer." Minardil's company numbers 100. Thorongil is concerned not only for his company, but for the other one as well. He is thinking of the whole, and not just about the advantage extra food could bring to his company. It speaks much of his character as well as for his experience in managing multiple units and companies of men.
Author's reply
Very astute of you to notice! Indeed: Thorongil is keeping in mind that, war games aside, they *are* all united in purpose. His foresight and experience truly should benefit everyone.
DoggieGirl
· 18 November 2015
· Chapter 10: Come In, Go Forth
Interesting perspectives of Thorongil. One who trusts him and one who doesn't.
Thorongil shows again why men love him. He takes his free time and spends it helping them and relieving their burdens when he can. And of course he helps out Jamon who Thorongil has learned was unfairly treated. I think Thorongil and Jamon have the beginning of a friendship here. If only Jamon could know that he had the approval of the "king" himself to make up for the fact of his so obvious disapproval in the Stewards heir's eyes.
It was such a small detail, but the line about how Thorongil noticed how eager, thankful and happy Jamon's beloved was at the prospect of their upcoming marriage was a sad little reminder of Thorongil's own unfulfilled dreams about his beloved. At this point he couldn't even dare to imagine Arwen would ever being so happy, joyful, thankful at the prospect of marrying him. The thought is too painful for Aragorn to consider.
I wonder why sneaky Denethor purposefully left the extra supplies. surely it would not have been something that a detail maniac such as Denethor would forget. Unfortunately for Thorongil's company, they are now pared with one of the citadel's finest companies just because of Denethor's concerns over Thorongil. As Minardil observes, it has all markings of a set up to fail. But Thorongil is just as smart as Denethor and is more than able to out whit him on a moch battle field as leader. But since he isn't a leader yet it will be interesting to see how Thorongil overcomes these obstacles. Minardil already respects him and almost views him as an equal with skill and knowledge not easily ignored despite being a lowly soldier. It will also be interesting to see if Thorongil's efforts with the men at practice fighting will have elevated them just little more to being able to take on a citadel guard's company. Their is definitely something underfoot and Denethor has plan to be sure.
I know it sounds greedy, but please update soon. After this last chapter I am burning with curiosity to see what will unfold.
Author's reply
Thank you, as always, for the lovely and detailed feedback. It would be lovely (and ironic!) if Jamon knew the truth, wouldn't it?
I am so very, very glad that you picked up on and appreciated that little line about Thorongil's (apparently) unrequited love. It's such a painful thing.
I do have to apologise for the longer wait this time: difficult week!
shirebound
· 18 November 2015
· Chapter 10: Come In, Go Forth
Thorongil had a way of drawing out a man's best in a match
There are few compliments higher than someone bringing out the best in those around him.
Author's reply
Very true! Thank you as always.
Matt
· 18 November 2015
· Chapter 10: Come In, Go Forth
Nice chapter. Less-difficult! Denothor works well, even if he is being a bit of a racist. The scenes between Thorongil and his captain work very well, particularly the preparation via carrying a little extra food. Thanks for your hard work on this, looking forward to the next chapter.
Author's reply
Thank you! I'm glad that Denethor's withdrawal from his knee-jerk aggression works well. As for the racism, well, at least it's canonical! It's great to know the Thorongil/Minardil scenes work. Cheers!
someone
· 18 November 2015
· Chapter 10: Come In, Go Forth
What I like most about this chapter is that it was almost completely from Denethor and Minardil's point of view. It is interesting what the new recruit looks like in the eyes of a lord and a common captain, and the differences between those views. Denethor catches subtler things, such as the way Thorongil looks at people and the way he moves. Minardil, on the other hand, doesn't see much below the surface, but he notices the way Thorongil interacts with people and most likely knows Thorongil's personality better.
And yes, Thorongil definitely knows his place. The problem is that no one else in the whole Gondor knows.
I like Minardil more and more. His analysis of the duel was interesting, and explains how it is possible to be happy after losing the fight. He should be able to face the Second Company, especially with the help of an undercover undermarshal/captain.
Author's reply
I'm so glad the contrast of the points of view worked well! You've summed up the difference nicely, too. Denethor's thought about Thorongil knowing his place would doubtless amuse the good Guardsman to no end.
How fantastic to know you like Minardil! Thank you.
Larner
· 17 November 2015
· Chapter 9: Well-Meant Counsel
I'm reminded of Gandalf unbending to Pippin, remarking how tiring it must have been to stand between two such powerful individuals as himself and Denethor that day, having to keep private such news as could not be shared outside the Fellowship. Aragorn indeed should be feeling the tension but beginning to ease now that he's gone from Denethor's presence!
In my own tales Aragorn gave his name as "Peredhrion" at times, which most translated as "Half Son," also believing it indicated he might have been illegitimate. That it was a tribute to his foster father no one dreamed.
Good fencing there.
Author's reply
What a wonderful idea! I love the notion of Aragorn paying tribute to all three of his parents in the name of his errantries. Very cool!
Poor Pippin! That scene... he's just so honest and upright and brave. AWWW! Now I'm all awash with the Pippin-love...
sneha
· 16 November 2015
· Chapter 9: Well-Meant Counsel
What a wonderful talent, to speak but not reveal anything of import. The talk between the Steward and the new soldier was so courteous and warm. And I could feel the rising tension, the disharmony as soon as Denethor entered the picture. Uncourteous, cold and ever suspicious. I just want to shake Denethor! His older sister seems lovely and has the measure of him. I look forward to the next chapter!
Author's reply
Yes, a very Strider-y talent, too. ;-) I'm glad you could feel the warmth in that conversation, and indeed the change when Denethor entered. His suspicions aren't wholly unreasonable, which is the worst part of it. So pleased you like Telpiriel!
Lori
· 16 November 2015
· Chapter 9: Well-Meant Counsel
Ecthelion and Thorongil get along so well. I love how Aragorn is as honest as he can be and doesn’t lie outright to conceal his identity even if it would be easier for him. Like others have mentioned, it is an important aspect of his character that shows his honor.
I did wonder if I had missed a nuance of understanding when Aragorn said responded in the affirmative that he had been a Captain of the Mark. Ecthelion thought the words should have been sounded with more finality. Why should they have been said with finality and why did Aragorn not say them with such?
Denathor’s personality and almost unchecked behavior of arrogance, prejudice, and control defeintly put him at odds with Thorongil. They are both so similar in build and intelligence, yet they are so diametrically opposite in personality, behavior, and wisdom. Their conversations are like tense duels to be sure.
Author's reply
I feel very strongly on that point: Aragorn *must* be as truthful as possible, and must chose 'I cannot tell you' over a lie when vague answers and equivocation don't work. In LWW, he wouldn't even lie to Third Voice.
Ecthelion just felt the answer seemed too open-ended, as indeed it was. Although he was indeed a Captain of the Mark, that was not the highest rank that Thorongil held in Rohan. As Undermarshal, I put him in charge of 1/3 of the force under the First Marshal of the Mark -- nine to ten éoreds (and their Captains) in addition to his own. So when he left Rohan he was *both* Undermarshal and a Captain, not only a Captain. If the conversation had not turned, he might have got around to that admission, but he didn't.
Unchecked behaviour... very well put, and very typical of an only son and heir. Denethor's lost potential is one of the bitter tragedies in the Book.
Aromene
· 16 November 2015
· Chapter 9: Well-Meant Counsel
Me thinks Denethor's sisters need to find him a wife post haste! Anything to dull that deep seating need to control everything and everyone, even sometimes his own father. I was smiling most of the way through, because of course, at the end of the day, Denethor's personality rather comes back to bite him in the future. Unfortunately for him.
Author's reply
Haha! Yes, that would be best. Unfortunately the 'perfect lady' is still just a girl, no doubt out feeding the gulls as Anaiwen feeds the sparrows. I wonder if Denethor could have been saved from his spiral of madness if FInduilas had lived.
DoggieGirl
· 16 November 2015
· Chapter 9: Well-Meant Counsel
Thorongil and Ecthelion's chat was marvelous. Thorongil started out the perfect submissive soldier but quickly saw the honest warmth and goodness in Ecthelion. I am glad that at least Ecthelion knows a little bot more about Thorngil's family. Although several times I could help but laugh at things that Ecthelion could not possibly know but we do such as: Thorongil being a very poor, small land owner (when in fact he is heir to all of Arnor, no small parcel of land), and that he was raided by a err... uncle (Yeah a a uncle hundreds of times removed but still), and taking his uncles name instead of his fathers (Thorongil son of Elrond or Estel son of Elrond would probably be just as bad and preposterous to others as his own father's name). Of course, I think one of my favorite moments was when Ecthelion discovered in surprise that he had a captain of the mark and leader of his own éored. It will be interesting to see of that knowledge stays where it is or trickles down to others. I wonder what Minardil would say if he knew who his lowly soldier had been. Denethor won't be pleased if he hears that is for sure. It was amazing to see how Thorongil handled Denethor. He never lets his pride stand in the way of smoothing a situation and easing tensions. He doesn't let himself become easily provoked but hold onto his self control with admirable strength. Denethor must be so frustrated to know that Thorongil spoke the truth but that it was still shrouded in mystery. Can't wait for more. Please update soon.
Author's reply
So pleased you like it! There was definitely some cause for humour there; dear Ecthelion and his perfectly reasonable leaps of logic. Such lovely comments, too, on the dynamics of the conversation: thank you! It was time for Thorongil to open up a little, and for Ecthelion to get a *few* answers, at least. Interesting speculation on how Minardil would react to that news, too. You kind of have to feel for Denethor in his frustration, right?
Matt
· 16 November 2015
· Chapter 9: Well-Meant Counsel
Yep, just don't like those Denithor moments. Think you may be accelerating the conflict between them too much. Stranger though he may be Thorongil is one of many in the city at this point. The scene with Ecthelion work well , as did that between Denithor and his sister. One wonders, though, if Denithor was as much of a tight-ass early in life or if, as Tolkien implies, he got worse as he got older. Thanks for your hard work on this, looking forward to future installments.
Author's reply
Thank you again for the fantastic constructive feedback. I do have my reasons for Denethor's instant antagonism, not the least of which is that Thorongil's refusal to answer such basic questions really *is* genuinely suspicious. I don't think Denethor was as bad early in life as he became, nor that I've got him near that point now. He's definitely sane, if sometimes petty, and he is still working for the good of Gondor. Not to mention that his compassion cogs haven't rusted solid yet...
Thanks again! I'm very flattered that you're reading, and I hugely appreciate your thoughts on my interpretation of these unique characters. Cheers!
Author Reply: Thank you again for the fantastic constructive feedback. I do have my reasons for Denethor's instant antagonism, not the least of which is that Thorongil's refusal to answer such basic questions really *is* genuinely suspicious. I don't think Denethor was as bad early in life as he became, nor that I've got him near that point now. He's definitely sane, if sometimes petty, and he is still working for the good of Gondor. Not to mention that his compassion cogs haven't rusted solid yet...
Thanks again! I'm very flattered that you're reading, and I hugely appreciate your thoughts on my interpretation of these unique characters. Cheers!
shirebound
· 16 November 2015
· Chapter 9: Well-Meant Counsel
And what did your mother call this… village?’ asked Denethor with a taciturn twitch of the lips.
‘She called it home, sire,’ said Thorongil.
Bravo. To speak the truth, yet reveal little... what a useful, albeit exhausting gift! A wonderful conversation.
Author's reply
Thank you! Exhausting, yes... but he really does get a lifetime of use out of those skills.
Celeth
· 16 November 2015
· Chapter 9: Well-Meant Counsel
No wonder Thorongil feels that way every time he encounters Denethor. Just reading about him seems to exhaust me as well as excite me. But the exciting part mostly comes from Thorongil; Denethor is the exhausting part hehe.
Now I wonder what will happen next? We will go on vacation for the next 6 days, and probably I won't be able to read your next post until Monday. But I'm looking forward to it!
Author's reply
Very glad to know it comes across in the writing: thank you! I always prefer to show rather than to tell. Enjoy your holiday!
UTfrog
· 16 November 2015
· Chapter 9: Well-Meant Counsel
The final sentence says it all. How much pain and loss Gondor suffered all those years because Denethor was so jealous!
Author's reply
Alas, yes: that really does sum it up very well. Jealous of Thorongil, jealous of knowledge, jealous of his own children...
Another fantastic chapter! Loved the duel in the last one too, of course.
I'm glad Thorongil finally got a better-fitting uniform! No more chapped wrists for him, I hope.
This is such an excellent conversation between Ecthelion and Thorongil. As always, I really appreciate your attention to detail - for example, Ecthelion's thoughts about tapping his fingers in impatience really add realism to his character; I do the same thing. The action itself is perhaps insignificant to the plot of the story, but it is a detail that helps to define his character and make it ever-more believable. I just about choked, though, at the line "plainly Thorongil was not a man of means." *snerk* Ecthelion has no idea... He is such a gentle, kindly soul, though, with such pity for poor, fatherless Thorongil. Heh heh.
Just curious, 'cause I'm not sure if I understand correctly... Is a Captain of the Mark lower in rank than an Undermarshal? I would think that an Undermarshal is still kind of a Captain of the Mark... Silly question, I suppose.
My, I quite enjoy Denethor's sisters. Telpiriel, at least, has his measure! Very amusing how she called him out on the matter of the letter. Again, lovely characterizations for all of these characters. Denethor is spot-on; it's going to be a rough time for him from now on, with Thorongil around! Thorongil deals with him masterfully, nonetheless.
Last of all, I couldn't help but smile at the line "And remember: it is better to sway a little than to freeze." I imagine Denethor might be willing to argue that point! However, this really drives home Ecthelion's good-natured soul. All in all, this is marvelous!
Cheers!
Author's reply
Thank you! I'm glad you liked the duel, and especially the conversation in this chapter. It's great to know the finger-tapping added some realism, and that Thorongil's not-quite-answers were a source of amusement. That is, of course, one of their aims (not the first aim, but definitely on the list!).
We do not really know the precise command structure of Rohan, but we know that a Marshal lead s about one-third of a full Muster of the mark, and that a Captain leads one éored (about 120 men, if Éomer's is representative). There is a very big leap in numbers there, from 120 men to about 4000, so I devised the position of Undermarshal to bridge the gap. In this system, there are three Undermarshals under each Marshal, each in command of eight to ten Captains (and éoreds) as well as their own éored. So Thorongil was first a lowly Rider, then a sergeant, then a lieutenant, then a Captain, and finally an Undermarshal (but *at the same time* also still the Captain of the Eagle's Éored) before leaving Rohan. Not a silly question at all!
So pleased you like the girls! They're lovely to write.
someone
· 16 November 2015
· Chapter 9: Well-Meant Counsel
Finally, there is someone who can challenge Denethor! Telpiriel knows her little brother well and brings some much needed balance in that family. Ecthelion is not only impatient, but also slightly blind, at least when it comes to Denethor.
The part where Ecthelion thinks about Thorongil's lands is so very ironic. His idea of a tiny piece of land seems to fit with everything Thorongil has told him, but I don't think Arnor is that small! It is easy to pity both Ecthelion and Denethor; Denethor, as he has met someone even more extraordinary than himself and now has to doubt his own worth, and Ecthelion, as his good heart has made him feel too sorry for his new soldier.
Author's reply
Unfortunately, yes. Ecthelion does not quite understand his intelligent, stubborn, fiercely driven son. I'm glad you enjoyed the irony in the Steward's assumptions, and indeed that you can see how each man needs a little sympathy in this situation.
someone
· 16 November 2015
· Chapter 8: Undefeated
What I really like is the uneasy feeling Thorongil starts to get, when he sees all the soldiers come to watch. And even more the scene after the fight, when Thorongil is surprised that Minardil didn't even realize what was his mistake! I think those two will be sparring more in the future, just to get rid of the little mistakes.
Anaiwen is a smart little lady and Denethor a sneaky man, managing to torment a man while looking like a sensible commander. Jamon should think of finding another trade.
And now, for the next chapter! And to see if Anaiwen's council wasn't so good after all.
Author's reply
Thank you, as always! Yes, even Thorongil is susceptible to a touch of stage fright now and then. I'm glad you liked that moment! Sound advice for Jamon, but first he'd need to work out that he's been targeted. He doesn't even know yet.
shirebound
· 14 November 2015
· Chapter 8: Undefeated
I enjoyed that competition very much. :)
Author's reply
Thank you! We were due for a little action, even without mortal stakes.
Aromene
· 13 November 2015
· Chapter 8: Undefeated
I loved the ending moment between Ecthelion and his daughter. She's wise beyond her years for certain!
You have an amazing ability to describe a 'fight' without making it seem confusing or boring. I could almost picture it in my head, the two of the circling each other, trying to figure each other out. It was quite the match!
Author's reply
I'm very relived it wasn't boring! That's always a danger with action sequences. Thank you! And how lovely that you liked Anaiwen's moment with her father. Cheers!
Freyalyn
· 13 November 2015
· Chapter 8: Undefeated
Another lovely update - and the duel was excellently written. I was gasping along with the watchers.
But oh dear, your Denethor is a nasty piece of work. I can really see how he was followed through duty and honour but not love.
Author's reply
Thank you! On both counts, unfortunately... Denethor is a cold, cold man.
Matt
· 13 November 2015
· Chapter 8: Undefeated
Really nice job on this chapter. The duel really helps shape Thorongil's skills and place in the guards. I also liked the conversation between Ecthelion and his daughter. She is very wise. I think her one of your characters and not one from JRRT? I should also note that I found ch7 an interesting read but definitely liked the chapters where Thorongil is with the people more than those when he's with the leaders....maybe Denithor is a bit too sharply pointed for now. Thanks for your hard work on this, looking forward to the next installment.
Author's reply
Thank you very much. I"m glad you like Thorongil's interactions with ordinary people. I think that's one of his greatest strengths as a King, and it's wonderful to explore his early experiences. I'm glad you're enjoying the story, and I appreciate the thoughtful feedback so much!
quodamat
· 12 November 2015
· Chapter 8: Undefeated
Hi, Canafinwe. Thanks for another great chapter! There were a few lines in this one that I particularly loved, such as "numerous other colourfully but vaguely named transgressions." Sounds like there are some good stories there! Maybe if you end up doing appendices for this story one day, some of them could find their way in. ;) I also loved the line "blades singing through the winter air like the sighs of a lovelorn giantess." I don't know who you came up with that imagery, but it's wonderfully creative and evocative! Finally, your description of the birds was so great: "Both drew back, wings half-spread, and circled one another with hops and little flaps. They were chirping indignantly, as if quarrelling, and the other birds retreated from the fracas." Aside from being a clever counterpart to the sword fight, it reminds me of the constant little tiffs and sparring among the birds that flutter around near a bird feeder at my parents' house, especially in winter. Watching them is wonderful cheap entertainment when I visit for Christmas!
I like Anaiwen very much. If she's still around when Aragorn becomes king, she sounds like someone who would be very handy to have around: observant, clever, and discreet!
Author's reply
Thank you! What a treat to know which lines struck you. I love to watch birds competing. They're so funny, and *so serious* about the whole thing! It's great that you like Anaiwen. Thank you!
quodamat
· 12 November 2015
· Chapter 7: Tread With Care
I just had to laugh at the line "Disrobing fully would squander time better spent in sleep"...I SO know that feeling! Such a shame that it backfired for poor Thorongil.
I'm now rooting for Jamon to do something quite spectacular and laudable, just to show up Denethor and his racist ways! Chilling indeed.
As always, thanks!
Author's reply
Heh. Yes, I think we've all felt that way at one time or another! Poor Thorongil.
Mmm. That would be nice, wouldn't it? Keep cheering Jamon on!
quodamat
· 12 November 2015
· Chapter 6: The Steward and the Stranger
I really admire the way you are able change the tone of your writing as you switch between points of view. It really gives me the sense of being in the characters' heads, so to speak, as opposed to listening to a single narrator switch from talking about one scene to talking about another.
Your Denethor is very chilling. It makes it easy to see how he ended up where he was by the end of LotR, though I sort of wonder how he lasted so long! On the other hand, I imagine he's the kind of person who would be much calmer once he held sole authority as Steward, as long as he wasn't facing any real challenges to his authority. I think some people who are able to act as reasonably benevolent leaders (so long as others remain subservient) are dreadful followers...and deadly in any kind of power struggle. Actually, I just recently listened to a history-themed podcast that was talking about Henry VIII of England, and I got an impression of him as just that sort of person. So, there's a sign that you really do excel at characterization!
Thanks, as always, for sharing your work!
Author's reply
I do try to keep the narrative tone suited to each point of view: it's lovely to know I've succeeded. I agree completely about Denethor. He has a lot of problems, but many of them are tied up in insecurity -- in his position, in his father's eyes, ultimately upon his seat of power. It's a very apt comparison, Denethor and Henry VIII, at least as regards their response to any perceived challenge to their authority. Thankfully Denethor was saner than Henry in other matters, though!
Lori
· 12 November 2015
· Chapter 8: Undefeated
I adored the dual between Minardil and Thorongil. It was well paced and well written. Our humble soldier is becoming quite popular isn’t he. Of course, having a running record of unbeatable does help get that attention. This is only going to increase that attention. Poor guy didn’t even really see it coming. I like how you show that Aragorn has subtly changed over the years. I am sure he that because of who he was trained by, he was always almost superhumanly skilled at sword fighting, tracking, and blending into the wilderness. But there were other skills that slowly evolved over time such as learning how to blend into the background in a world of men. As you once said, he has learned a lot of that by the time we meet him as Strider. I like to see the evolution because it is real and I would have it any other way.
Denethor shows again why his men fear him, why good captain such as Minardil feel they need to advocate for the men under their command, and why people don’t like him. His precious time undisturbed by thought of the latest newcomer, is about to be rudely and unpleasantly come to an end with all the talk of the duel. He will not be a happy camper that is for sure. But maybe he can challenge him next? Unless the Sable Guard of upper level get a shot first.
Based on the questions Ecthelion wants to ask Thorongil, I am not sure he is going to get much informative answers. But Ecthelion would probably be able to handle that a lot better than Denethor though. It will be interesting to see how that plays out.
His daughter seems like such a supporting and caring daughter. She seems very well apprised of the goings on of very lowly soldiers. I must say I am quite curious about that. Did she my accident just hear about this news because it was so freely circulated or is she personally taking an interest in the young, intriguing, unusual new recruit? Is she like this with any piece of news or she possible developing a slight crush-like interest in the fellow connected to the letter she delivered? It’s hard to tell, but certainly intriguing.
Keep up the good work. Post again as soon as you can.
Author's reply
It's so nice to know that Aragorn's youth shows here, and his slow development of some of those skills that, as you say, don't come quite as naturally. He was borne to be a King of Men, after all: hiding that had to take some practice!
And Denethor... well, you really said it all very nicely. No spoilers on Anaiwen, of course! Thank you for the lovely, long review: the feedback is so very much appreciated. It makes posting a joy.