Reviews (191)

French Pony · 4 July 2006 · Chapter 21: Ch. 15 - Third Age 2983 - Part One

Ah, Ecthelion, the opera-villain-cum-Steward-of-Gondor. Finally, reality catches up to him, and he allows Denethor to become Captain General. Well, he's on his way out, so he'll get his. Finduilas really is wilting here. I'm surprised that she managed to bear both Boromir and Faramir, frail as she is.

Raksha The Demon · 4 July 2006 · Chapter 29: Ch. 20 - Third Age 2997 - Part One

Ah, now we're approaching more familiar territory. I always thought that the trouble between Denethor and Faramir would have started in his early-to-mid adolescence. The teenaged years are difficult enough for most kids, but it was there, as you write, that I saw two elements appear that would trouble Denethor, though they are not in themselves dangerous: 1. Faramir's independance of mind would surface and stay, he'd be starting to ask questions and think for himself instead of just assuming that his father is always right in everything - though he would not break the bounds of loyalty or fealty that he owed his father; 2. Mithrandir's relationship with Faramir (which I see as beginning somewhat earlier) would start to really bother Denethor - I see Mithrandir as taking pains not to alienate Faramir from his father, but liking the kid and seeing him for himself, a bright boy with an inquiring mind, not just as the Steward's second son, and Faramir would instinctively respond to the wizard, and learn what he had to teach (which would be mostly lore, old tales, languages) in Mithrandir's limited visits to Minas Tirith. I meant to correct, or at least to append my review of your Author's Notes at least in my statement that Denethor was not a benevolent, kindly father to Faramir. I meant to say, or should have said, that I don't consider Denethor to have been a benevolent, loving father to Faramir when the entirety of Denethor's parental role is considered. At some point, Faramir has to have felt love from his father, and returned it - or else, he wouldn't have called on his father in his delirium, and his father's love (and withholding of that love in ROTK) wouldn't have mattered to Faramir at all - and we know that it did. I think Denethor cared for Faramir, and would have been a distant kindly presence in the boy's childhood. Perhaps they might have had a few years, when Boromir was spending more time with training and Faramir was still mostly a child, where Denethor exulted in his second son's intellect and took a little time to guide it. But Denethor seems to me to have a fatal flaw that the Palantir over-usage exacerbated but did not create - he clings too tightly to the things and people he values, he will not share, those he loves must cleave to him alone - hence his dislike and jealousy of Thorongil because Ecthelion, and the people of Gondor, loved him. And that's why Faramir's listening to Mithrandir angers Denethor, despite Faramir's never evincing any disloyalty. I don't see Denethor ever beating Faramir, though corporal punishment might have been an accepted means of parental discipline in Gondor, he would never have gone out of control with it. But I think Denethor consciously favored Boromir throughout his firstborn's life, and that Faramir was always a poor second in his father's eyes. And I do believe that Denethor verbally bullied Faramir, or at least frequently found unjustified fault with him (or exaggerated minimal faults), over a long period of time. (Tolkien also established that Denethor preferred, and expected, total obedience to his will, and I see Faramir as someone who might have occasionally disagreed with his father - and been verbally pecked and gutted for it) But Faramir himself is, emotionally, a very strong and resilient man, and developed strong emotional shields, control, and occasionally ways to verbally defend himself when it got too bad. However, it is noticeable in The Siege of Gondor chapter of ROTK, that Faramir is a bit nervous (he doesn't telegraph his emotions, it's only if you study his words that you see that slight nervousness "I hope I have not done ill"). And Denethor accuses Faramir of bearing himself "lowly" in Denethor's presence, which, since we never see Faramir skulk or stutter, I take to mean that Denethor had been picking on Faramir over a long period, and Faramir would hold himself aloof and that Denethor, super-perceptive as he was, could read the conflicts in his son's heart, especially since Faramir had probably conditioned himself not to disagree with his father unless it was absolutely neccessary. One could go on for pages and pages debating and discussing Faramir and Denethor's relationship. You've done a good job in developing it here, and showing their similarities, and the roots of the eventual mess they're in in ROTK. (I also think that another reason for the conflict between them is that Denethor did not want an intellectual rival, and Faramir was probably the only man in Gondor who could be that rival). But there never was doubt in my mind that Denethor had at least some love for Faramir, and that Faramir definitely loved his father. Denethor was not a monster, just a man really not cut out for single fatherhood and not very good at it, and someone also weighed down by greater responsibilities, and, sadly, by his own confusion of control with love.

French Pony · 4 July 2006

Here I come, catching up! I'd forgotten how rich your writing is, and what a pleasure it is to read. You have a very compelling style when describing Denethor's interior life; I'm eagerly anticipating watching his decline from inside his skull. That will be a fascinating event indeed.

xiaoweisan · 28 June 2006 · Chapter 999999: Regarding Denethor and Faramir

Oh my. Why was my review so messy?? I hope this revision could do. In fact, I don't think Ecthelion was a monster, either. As far as I know, his only "crime" was to favor Thorongil above his own son, which was terrible enough for any "normal" father. However, Ecthelion was not a "normal" father; he was a ruler. Having read a number of history books, I have found that, in ancient times, strained relations between a ruler and his grown heir were very, very common. Usually, the son would strive to prove himself and to shoulder more responsibility (= authority, for a member of the ruling family); but the father was often reluctant to give up some of his authority, and was even more reluctant to admit that he was already old. Such strife could lead to a lot of killings; I have read countless examples in history books. As Ecthelion and Denethor did not try to kill each other:-), maybe their relationships were not so bitter, compared to other rulers and heirs. IMO, the tensions between Ecthelion and Denethor had existed even before Thorongil came to Gondor. As time went on, Ecthelion gave his paternal love to Thorongil rather than Denethor, because of the rift between the father and son; and because Thorongil was not only brave, brilliant, honorable, but also of the same age of Denethor, thus could serve as an excellent "substitute", if you understand me. I remember reading that Thorongil and Denethor even had similar looks, but I am not sure of that. Moreover, Thorongil might unintentionally encourage Ecthelion's actions, even if he knew well that would worse the bad feelings between Ecthelion and Denethor. Thorongil lost his own father at the tender age of two; and he was not at very good terms with his foster father, Elrond the half-elf, when he left Rivendell, because of Arwen. Needless to say, Denethor resented his father's actions and tried his best to avoid the same error. As we know, he proved to be a good father to Boromir; yet he repeated his own father's error in another way. Faramir shared Denethor's intellect and insight, and in him, as in his father, the blood of Numenor ran true; he was more like Denethor than Boromir was. In some sense, Denethor's disfavor for his younger son was almost self-denial, which reflected the denial he suffered as a young man. He wanted to be someone different from Ecthelion, yet he repeated what his father did. What a tragedy. In reality, people who have been abused by their parents tend to abuse their own children; and those who have divorced parents are more subject to divorce after they get married. Even if they have realized their parents' errors and deliberately taken the opposite tacks, they will, more often than not, repeat those errors in a twisted way. On the other hand, I believe Denethor was, or at least tried to be, a decent father when his sons were small. But things changed as Boromir and Faramir grew up. Boromir was a valiant warrior and a loyal and obedient son, but he had little interest in learning and lore. Naturally, he agreed with his father on most important issues. But Faramir shared his father's wisdom and DISAGREED with his lord father on many important issues, such as Gandalf and the One Ring. No doubt Denethor was frustrated.

Raksha The Demon · 26 June 2006 · Chapter 27: Ch. 19 - Third Age 2990 - Part One

Wonderful description of Boromir's swearing the oath, and Denethor's justifiable pride. And Faramir first meets Mithrandir - a fateful event written very well, with Faramir as a curious, laughing child intrigued by the wizard's kindness as well as his fascinating hat. I like Faramir shown as an often impatient, active little boy anxious to ride a real horse again, as well as a child who loves to read.

Raksha The Demon · 26 June 2006 · Chapter 999999: Regarding Denethor and Faramir

I do agree that PJ botched the characterization of Denethor - Denethor was not a raving lunatic, at least not until his final moments on the Pyre. And his mistreatment of Faramir is far more subtle in the book. Also, Gandalf praised Denethor's intelligence and perception, rather than disparaging him to Pippin.

Raksha The Demon · 26 June 2006 · Chapter 999999: Regarding Denethor and Faramir

I disagree with the contention that Tolkien meant Denethor to be perceived as a benevolent father to Faramir. Tolkien never said that Denethor didn't love his younger son. I'm of the opinion that Denethor was not a total monster, nor an abuser of wife or children. But I wouldn't characterize him as a good father, regardless of his intent, at least from what is seen in ROTK. Nor do I think Denethor's conduct towards Faramir can be blamed totally on the Palantir - his maneuvering him into a dangerous mission when Faramir is physically exhausted, and his terribly cold refusal to give him a decent farewell, indicates more wounded pride and old paranoia/resentment of Mithrandir than madness. As to Tolkien's intent, he did not intend the conversation you quote from the earlier draft to stand in the final draft. In HoME VIII, War of the Ring (softcover version) Chapter VI The Siege of Gondor, editor Christopher Tolkien quotes from a slip of paper where JRRT revealed why he changed the dialogue that indicated a kinder, gentler Denethor to the crueler version in the published book (it was not because he was pressured to leave out parts): "The early conversation of Faramir and his father and motives must be altered. Denethor must be harsh , He must say he did wish Boromir had been at Henneth Annun - for he would have been loyal to his father and brought him the Ring. (Gandalf may correct this.) Faramir grieved but patient. Then Denethor must be all for holding Osgiliath 'like Boromir did', while Faramir (and Gandalf?) are against it, using the arguments previously given to Denethor. At length in submission, but proudly, to please his father and show him that not only Boromir was brave [he] accepts the command at Osgiliath. Men in the City do not like it. This will not only be truer to previous situation, but will explain Denethor's breaking up when Faramir is brought back dying, as it seems." So Denethor's harshness with Faramir in the final, published version of ROTK came about only because Tolkien himself wished it, not because of space considerations. There is a tendency among some fanfiction writers to depict Denethor as a gentle, kindly father to both of his children - with all due respect to some skilled writers, I regard it as somewhat AU. Though we can't say for certain how Denethor treated his younger son when Faramir was a child, and I doubt that he ever consciously abused the boy, the narrative and Appendices by Tolkien himself paint a less appealing picture. Tolkien said that Faramir 'displeased' his father ("He welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the City, and he learned what he could from his wisdom; and in this as in many other matters he displeased his father"). And, as Steward of Gondor, Denethor would have had very little time to spend with his children, and by necessity would have spent what time he did have with Boromir, who as Heir to the Stewardship, would have been most in need of Denethor's guidance. Nannies and tutors would have spent more time with the boys. Nor do I personally see, from the depiction of Denethor in ROTK, Denethor as a man with much patience for young children, even his own. I'm enjoying this story, Denethor's characterization is internally consistent (though to me, it is not particularly canonical) and the narrative compelling. I'm looking forward to seeing where you'll take it. But I can't agree that Tolkien meant Denethor to be perceived as a good father to Faramir in ROTK.

xiaoweisan · 21 June 2006 · Chapter 28: Ch. 19 - Third Age 2990 - Part Two

I wonder who the elf was. A tall elf with shining and "golden" hair? As far as I know, most elves in the Middle Earth had black hair. Was the elf a kinsman of King Thranduil?

Sarasrati · 27 May 2006 · Chapter 24: Ch. 17 - Third Age 2988

I haven't ever reviewed this story before, but I thought this last chapter deserved a bit of praise. I was kind of dreading it, both knowing what was going to happen (especially considering the wonderful depth of the relationship you have set up here) and having read other fics that didn't treat Findulias's death very well at all, but I shouldn't have worried. I am amazed at how you can put so much life into characters while still staying true to canon. We all know what'll happen to Denethor in the future, but there's so much more to him before that, and you're doing an absolutely fantastic job of showing what happened to make him that way while still keeping him a character to whom the reader can be sympathetic. Again, I loved the last chapter--kind of funny to say that, I suppose, because it was the saddest one yet, but it is an excellent piece of writing.

Raksha The Demon · 23 April 2006 · Chapter 22: Ch. 15 - Third Age 2983 - Part Two

Poor Finduilas is quite the nervous-Nellie type, isn't she. I tend to agree with Ecthelion that she's not suitable as a future Steward's wife. It's sad the way she is crumbling under various pressures; Denethor needs and loves her, but it's obvious that she isn't going to stay the course - the question is how long she can endure it.

Larner · 11 April 2006 · Chapter 1: Ch. 1 - Third Age 2936

The poor child--and to see the poor frog squashed like that! Escape only to die of not being seen! But I can see Ecthelion's concerns growing.

French Pony · 9 April 2006 · Chapter 20: Ch. 14 - Third Age 2980

Well, that was certainly a densely packed chapter! There's lots going on here, and Denethor is almost in over his head trying to keep up with it all. Ecthelion, it must be said, is an idiot. He's spending far more time trying to think of ways to spite Denethor than actually running Gondor. If those roving bands of Orcs had any brains in their evil little skulls, they'd have attacked Minas Tirith long ago. Interesting how Ecthelion gets off playing Denethor and Thorongil against each other. As my friend's mother says, "high school never ends." At least Thorongil was man enough to end it and take off at the high point of his career. In hindsight, perhaps Denethor should have taken Finduilas to Thengel's funeral. Even if she didn't know Thengel since her childhood, it would still have been appropriate for her to go as Denethor's wife. And she wouldn't have been feeling all alone and abandoned in time to experience her first earthquake. Oh well, live and learn. Denethor will regret this in the end. Your thees and thous are getting better -- unlike most people who make the attempt, you know the basics of when it's appropriate to use them, and that makes readers happy. There were a few little bobbles, and some constructions that were perhaps more awkward than they needed to be. In general, just keep the language simple, and it'll be easier to write and that much more effective.

Larner · 9 April 2006 · Chapter 0: Third Age - 2930

Beautiful emotions here, Agape. The loss of Rian so soon after the birth of the child would have been devastating, particularly in light of her words of concern regarding Denethor.

French Pony · 6 April 2006 · Chapter 19: Ch. 13 - Third Age 2978

Finally! I was able to finish this chapter without people coming and interrupting me, always needing something. . . I think you've got a good start here, and you certainly have some striking imagery. Denethor's terror at the prospect of Finduilas giving birth is realistic and understandable, especially given all the tsuris that has followed from Rían's untimely death. The diagnosis of Rían's fatal injury almost half a century after her death shows the cleverness of Gondor's new generation of healers, that will eventually lead to the compliments given to Gondor's leechcraft in LOTR. (The presence of male healers, rather than female midwives, at the birth is another issue, but it's not so important right now.) And the juxtaposition of the terrifying Orc massacre with the joy of Boromir's birth was quite striking. You worked that very well, integrating the two events nicely. However, there were a few things in this chapter that could stand another look-through. Be very careful when using "thee" and "thou." Those forms are not used much in current English, but they do have specific conjugations, and they're easy to get wrong. I knowest should be I know, even though it is followed by "thee." Be careful with the "est" ending on verbs. You use it more than is warranted -- only "thou" takes it, not "I," "you," or "s/he." At the very beginning, you have Indis remarking that Finduilas is carrying the baby high -- but then you seem to indicate that she's only about three months pregnant, at which point she wouldn't be showing at all. It seems that Ecthelion's craziness is not just directed at Denethor. His abuse of Amdir was completely unwarranted, and I wonder at that. I understand that Ecthelion's lunacy and abuse of Denethor is meant to be a prelude to the way that Denethor treats Faramir, but it seems that there's far more at work here than just that. It would be fascinating to explore that and find out why he's so crazy, what sort of hold Thorongil has over him that he would treat the rest of his soldiers with the same contempt that he shows for his son. I'm also interested to see when Denethor's change in personality will come. Denethor is forty-eight years old now, and he seems like a perfectly reasonable man, far more so than one might expect with such a terrible, inconsistent father. That he's survived relatively emotionally intact up until now says a great deal about the strength of his personality, but it also means that the leap he'll make from being sane and reasonable to being horrible to Faramir is going to be that much more extreme. I'll be interested to see how this goes down.

Aislynn Crowdaughter · 5 April 2006 · Chapter 19: Ch. 13 - Third Age 2978

In your story, Ecthelion is a stupid old man incapable to lead and so taken with his own hatred against his son he is destroying the moral in his people. In short, you made Ecthelion being movie-Denethor, while creating Denthor bookverse. I asm glad to see justice done to Denethor, but I see no base for this characterization of Ecthelion either. Is there a reason why he despises his own son so much? And your Aragorn is weak to go along weith it. Somehiow, I have trouble to believe this characterizateion, although I can easily see Denethor developing hatred for Thorongil in this story (without Thorongil ever doing anything on his own to set Denethor back). Aislynn

Raksha The Demon · 30 March 2006 · Chapter 18: Ch. 12 - Third Age 2976

I found it a bit hard to believe that Ecthelion would not allow anyone lacking Numenorean blood to be made Captain, to follow a tradition, except for Thorongil (who Ecthelion might have guessed could out-Numenor everyone in Gondor!). I don't think that Tolkien ever mentioned such a tradition; and it goes against the grain at least of Faramir's belief that Gondor's strength came in part from the wise assimilation of non-Numenorean people such as hill-dwellers and fisher-folk. Appendix A in ROTK makes it clear that Ecthelion not only encouraged "all men of worth from near or far" to take service in Gondor, but he gave "rank and reward" to those who were "trustworthy". I loved your use of songs here; also the meeting of Denethor with Eowyn. And now we see the seed of discord planted unwittingly by Ecthelion between Denethor and Thorongil in the form of a family heirloom that Denethor had intended to give to Finduilas. I would suspect that the rift will grow steadily between the two 'Thor's now.

French Pony · 30 March 2006 · Chapter 18: Ch. 12 - Third Age 2976

There's a nice sense of transition in this chapter. You can really see how things are changing for Denethor. Windows open even as doors close. Thorongil is perhaps ingratiating himself a little too much -- one can see why he'll up and vanish in a few more years. Meanwhile, Denethor's friendship with the Rohirrim is growing stronger, as does the alliance with Rohan. He really does seem to have the art of diplomacy under control. Ecthelion is as batshit as ever. He's starting to get a little monotonous, though. Perhaps it's the old age speaking.

French Pony · 17 March 2006 · Chapter 17: Ch. 11 - Third Age 2973 - Part Two

And that was the expected fallout from the little incident with the Easterlings. And Denethor gets demoted yet again. One begins to wonder if the rest of the lords of Gondor just don't care that Ecthelion is completely and utterly bats, or if they actually like it that way.

French Pony · 17 March 2006 · Chapter 16: Ch. 11 - Third Age 2973 - Part One

Ooh, lots of things going on here! Denethor has been bit by the love bug in pretty much the same way that anything else happens to him. He seems to be a very ardent, intense, and reserved lover. And he's also so besotted that he starts metting mixaphors. The idea of eyes being as gray as star sapphires could only have been thought of by one thoroughly in love. I have to say, Ecthelion's reaction to all of this seems a little weird. It's almost as if he's more interested in spiting Denethor than in who Denethor actually marries. His first choice of whatsherface, the one Denethor doesn't like, seems to be something he pulled out of thin air, just the first noble lady who crossed his mind. Hild, his second choice, is even more bizarre. Gondor and Rohan don't actually need to strengthen their alliance if Thengel is still married to Morwen. There's no real reason for Denethor not to marry Finduilas -- indeed, he's old enough by now that Ecthelion should probably be getting down on his knees and giving thanks that Denethor is getting married at all -- except for Ecthelion's increasingly strange habit of opposing anything Denethor wants to do, simply because the idea comes from Denethor. You can see that this is the sort of person that Denethor will eventually grow into, but it'll be interesting to see how it actually happens, how he comes to be so much like the father he despises. And of course, Ecthelion will listen to Thorongil saying the exact things that Denethor says, when he won't listen to them coming from Denethor. Way to improve morale among the soldiers of Gondor there.

Raksha The Demon · 16 March 2006 · Chapter 15: Ch. 10 - Third Age 2960 - Part Two

Thorongil certainly has a dramatic introduction to the service of Gondor! Good work on his and Denethor's budding relationship; they're each trying to be fair and friendly to each other, but there's trouble even now - Denethor is too pushy and suspicious, Thorongil is too withdrawn and controlled; and they're both alpha males, and now they're both serving Gondor under Ecthelion. Nice touch that Denethor is possessive of Gondor.

French Pony · 16 March 2006 · Chapter 15: Ch. 10 - Third Age 2960 - Part Two

And so this is how Thorongil got to Gondor! Denethor is going to kick himself every day for this, I'm sure. It's good to see that Ecthelion may finally be beginning to realize what a jerk he's been to Denethor all these years.

French Pony · 16 March 2006 · Chapter 14: Ch. 10 - Third Age 2960 - Part One

Well, that was quite an adventure. The Wild Men are one of those interesting little odds and ends of Middle-earth that Tolkien never really explored, and I like what you do with them here. They have a very believable motivation for their actions, and yet you retain the non-PC, 1940s oinga-boinga-ness that Tolkien gave them. And then for Denethor to be rescued by Thorongil, of all people! How he must be burning with shame.

French Pony · 15 March 2006 · Chapter 13: Ch. 9 - Third Age 2953 - Part Two

A little reconciliation is better than none. But Ecthelion has been so distant for so long, that he and Denethor will probably never have a really close relationship. There's a distance between them, that's just right for Thorongil to step into. . . And speak of the devil. Here he comes, to the court of Rohan. A subtle introduction -- he just suddenly pops up, butting in and making his presence known. I think I like that.

French Pony · 15 March 2006 · Chapter 12: Ch. 9 - Third Age 2953 - Part One

Oh my. That should solve the problem of telling the two Morwens apart. . . Ecthelion really seems to have gone off the deep end. Not calling Denethor home for five years? Oh, well, I suppose this is nothing. After all, he was prepared to leave the old guys out at Henneth Annun after thirty-five years. Sadly, it looks as though madness runs in the family.

Raksha The Demon · 14 March 2006 · Chapter 13: Ch. 9 - Third Age 2953 - Part Two

Significant developments! Ecthelion reveals the Tradition of Isildur and wants to prepare for the return of the Great King. And in the same chapter, Denethor is jealous of Thorongil. Poor Denny just can't get a break. Oh, it's "Mardil", not "Madril". More, please.