SurgicalSteel
· 1 September 2006
· Chapter 1: Debate in Valinor
Just found this story yesterday. This is an interesting reason behind why the Valar sent the Istari rather than going to Middle Earth themselves - to try and minimize the destruction.
Author's reply
According to the Silmarillion, after the horrors of the War of Wrath when at last Morgoth was thrown down the Valar refused to enter Middle Earth again. I could think of no better reasons than these to send the Istari from among the Maiar.
Am glad you've found this, and hope you check out some of my others as well.
French Pony
· 31 August 2006
· Chapter 5: Journey Begun
Ah, to see Saruman, young and arrogant. He's already smart about the world, but not wise. He knows who people are and what they are doing, but he has no idea why they do what they do, nor does he seem to care to find out. For him, teaching seems to be about handing down knowledge and edicts, regardless of whether or not the world is ready to receive them. Iarwain seems to have done the best he can, but Saruman doesn't take hints.
As for the question about ships -- if I were sailing from Valinor to Middle-earth, I would probably want either a cutter, a ketch, or a sloop, though the ketch might require more crew.
Author's reply
A cutter might do, and I'll consider changing that, perhaps. Sloop just sounds perhaps a bit too modern somehow, but I again admit I know next to nothing about sailing ships.
Yes, Saruman isn't starting off on quite the right foot, perhaps, although he has time before Radagast's arrival to perhaps polish his act somewhat, and perhaps do better in the domain of wisdom. And Iarwain, as was true of Osse, Uinen, and the Elves of Tol Eressea before him, is trying to give this one a handle on what he ought to be doing, and he's only partly listening.
Anonymous
· 31 August 2006
· Chapter 5: Journey Begun
Tedicus Dexius Eclectus types:
Great way you introduced Tom to the story and gave a good
backround history. He's always a hard character to pin down
especialy for us males that fail to appreciate his dancing gait
and penchant for dodgy doggerls. Of course J.R.R.T. was of the
generation that equated gay with being happy. I tend to be
suspicious of people that always appear to be perpetualy happy!
You seem to be painting a picture of Saruman as a younger version
of the Sharkey we all came to know and loath. This seems to
undermine the premise that the valar invested much thought and
effort into their choice of him in the first place. Put bluntly;
since Saruman has (to any rational person) the qualities most
consistant with being an arrogant asshole ony interested in
his own self agrandisment, sending him could only lead to disaster.
If Saruman's betrayal of the white council was totally unexpected
by the brightest of the peoples of all of arda including the valar,
that would tend to indicate to me that his choice to emulate Sauron
was late in comming and born perhaps out of a desperation of finding
a way to accomplish the mission he was appointed the head of. If he
saw no way to defeat Sauron, at least it would be better to replace him
rather than sail back in abject defeat. At some point he had to
conclude that his mission was impossible to accomplish, and allow
himself to be tempted to alternatives that led to his downfall.
If however, he never really took his mission seriously or even
figured it possible to accomplish at the start, the only reason to
accept it would have been a quest to grab power in a land free from the
influence of the valar. How could they lack that much insight into
one of lesser stature than themselves. After Morgoth you would expect
them to be a little more cautious.
Well this is starting to sound like a rant. I do have a life pathetic
though it may be.
This is meant as constructive criticism Larner. It's your story,
you write it the way you want to, but it did get me thinking.
A dangerous situation.
Write On.
Author's reply
You are undoubtedly right that thinking can be dangerous, and equally so for me as for you, of course. And you are right that by starting Saruman off as I have I've undermined his place in the White Council for the next thousand years or so. However, he is yet young in the ways of apparent mortality, and will probably prove himself.
And I do appreciate the constructive criticism, and thank you for it.
As I decided to make Saruman a volunteer, the Valar have a bit less choice than they might wish, and certainly Vaire has bad feelings of where all this will lead. But Saruman isn't truly stupid--inexperienced and thoughtless at the moment, but not stupid save when he wishes to hide from himself, I think.
And I do truly appreciate the feedback.
Dreamflower
· 31 August 2006
· Chapter 5: Journey Begun
*sigh*
And Saruman's much vaunted "foresight" was brought about by his own ignorant arrogance in telling too much to the wrong person. *sigh* And I'm assuming the dark-cloaked stranger was Angmar?
But I really enjoyed your speculation and origins for Tom Bombadil! That was really well done! One of the most plausible theories I've seen yet! Very well done!
Author's reply
I think it was in UT that Tolkien himself played a bit with the history of Tom Bombadil; that he might be a Maia himself who woke sufficiently once he came to Middle Earth that he took the shape of a Man and chose to remain ever there was hinted at but never truly decided on--it seemed to fit here.
As for the stranger being Angmar, I suspect indeed you are right. Flattery at the attention from the stranger led to the betrayal of the royal house of Cardolan; and he never inquired as to the origins of the horse, did he? I suspect the courting of Saruman began very early in his career.
Bodkin
· 31 August 2006
· Chapter 5: Journey Begun
Saruman's arrogance makes him very, very stupid. Dangerously so. At least for everyone he meets.
Author's reply
Yes, purposeful blindness does make us very stupid, and Saruman is a prime example of the process. I can so easily see this happening as Saruman begins his time in Middle Earth, aiding his own foreseeings to happen in one way or another.
Linda Hoyland
· 31 August 2006
· Chapter 5: Journey Begun
Interesting to see how differently Sauraman and Bombadil see life. Maybe with a wife Sauraman would not have been so greedy for power?Who knows?
Author's reply
Yes, it might have been the making of the Man--Istar. But then, if she'd been as too weak by him I suspect he'd have made her life miserable, while if she'd been ambitious and one to seek advancement herself she might have just made matters worse. I can't see him happy with a normal, supportive woman, really.
harrowcat
· 31 August 2006
· Chapter 5: Journey Begun
Hm.. you are as bad as Gandalf! Speaking ever in riddles! Maybe just as well as Saruman doesn't seem to have retained enough wisdom to be careful about what he says and to whom. But perhaps he is like any neophyte to a cause - far too full of initial enthusiasm for caution about the effect he will have. Or perhaps it is more to do with his self-centeredness and surity that he is right every time.
That prophecy is going to take a long time to come true though. A certain house at Crickhollow might be involved I guess. Loved how you wove places and people we know from the book into this.
Author's reply
In the Tale of Years it isn't completely clear when the Istari came--only that it was during the decline of the three northern kingdoms and the reassumption of power by the house of Arthedain. We know that Saruman came first, and then Aiwendil/Radagast, then the two Blue Wizards, and finally Olorin/Gandalf. They would have been greeted by Cirdan, as the indications show all came through Mithlond; they would have received their names fairly early on by those they met in Eriador, I think, and would have started following their courses early on.
That the Barrow Downs were beside the Old Forest and along the road indicates this had to be adjacent to the royal seat of Cardolan, since in the Appendices Tolkien tells us that Cardolan held the land later settled by the Hobbits as the Shire. And as I'd decided to place the King's house on the east side of the Baranduin in "Floods and Glamors" it only made sense to continue this. Crossroads of major routes routinely become the sites of major villages and later towns and cities; Bree was probably settled and wiped out several times over the centuries. It was probably originally one of the major market towns of Arnor, and probably fell to Cardolan when the kingdom was divided by Earendur, considering how close it, too, was to the Barrow Downs and the Baranduin. As exposed as it was, I suspect that the particular town development described in this chapter was destroyed in the last assault on Cardolan by Angmar, and that the Bree we know from LOTR was built later on, probably at much the same time as the coming of Hobbits into Eriador.
Don't forget that we know Frodo spent about ten years living in Buckland after his parents' deaths, as well as whatever time his family might have lived there prior to that. His night's stay in Crickhollow only adds to the prophecy.
Bombadil had already settled down in the Old Forest, and so would have been present and probably known to at least Saruman, Radagast, and Gandalf; and it wouldn't be right not to write him in now, I think!
So glad you appear to appreciate what I've written.
Kitty
· 31 August 2006
· Chapter 5: Journey Begun
You know, Larner, you managed to make Curumo/Saruman quite despicable here. It didn't occur to him to offer the remains of Cardolain any help, didn't it? And why get I the strong feeling he betrayed willingly Endorgil to his death only to have his own foreseeing proven true? Not to mention I've a strong idea just *who* this hooded stranger is. Saruman is an idiot to tell someone he doesn't know at all so much. Looking at this chapter, it is no wonder he turned in the end to Sauron or tried to supplant him.
Author's reply
Arrogance will out, and Saruman probably held his for a VERY long time. He could have aided the house of Cardolan, but didn't, as you note. As to whether he wittingly betrayed Endorgil is, I think, anyone's guess; but I suspect that Saruman would have been one of those who believes that anyone not seen as capable of holding onto what they have deserves to lose it, and wouldn't grieve over the demise of what he sees as a failing dynasty to begin with.
Curumo has become a piteous individual, hasn't he?
Kitty
· 30 August 2006
· Chapter 4: Choices Made
The difference between Curumo and Olórin is so obvious, even in this one paragraph. I can’t imagine Curumo would go and help the survivors from Ennor!
Aiwendil impressed me – he thought his role through much better and was able to understand very well what was truly needed. He isn’t one to seek power, that much is clear even now.
As for Olórin – well, once more he proved he was the best of the lot. Not only he gave up his power himself instead of having it drain from him, but he gave up even more than Manwe had intended. Even if we didn’t know the outcome of the mission of the Istari, I think from the last three chapters it would be easy to see much of it.
Author's reply
Arrogance is a good indication that, if that arrogance isn't knocked out of one, one will end up destroying ones own chances.
I started with Tolkien's own depiction of Olorin's nature before he was sent to Middle Earth, and tried to imagine the scenario of how it fell out. He's described as having served Nienna, Este, Yavanna, and so on, and having a special affinity with dreams. He also walked disguised, it was said, among the inhabitants of Tol Eressea, leaving relieved spirits in his wake. This certainly indicates that from his earliest times he was highly compassionate.
And I truly think that of all the Maiar, Olorin would be the one to seat himself lower at a feast and be called to sit closer to the host.
Glad you approve.
Linda Hoyland
· 30 August 2006
· Chapter 4: Choices Made
I like the way you show Gandalf was always quite a character !
Author's reply
Oh, I'm certain that Gandalf would always be a character. I suspect that his sense of humor must have bothered Saruman quite a bit, actually, but would have been appreciated by the Creator and Manwe.
Kitty
· 30 August 2006
· Chapter 3: The Voyage
To my shame I have to admit I enjoyed every one of Curumo’s difficulties along the way. It’s his own fault because he thought he was above good advice from others and serves him right.
Osse’s story should’ve been a warning to Curumo, but sadly he thinks he has no need of all of this. You’re right, even then he did the first step away from his path.
Author's reply
It's interesting to think how Curumo ended up destroying his own integrity and self from early on. Yes, Osse and Uinen tried to warn him; but when you think you can't fail, that's usually the first sign that's precisely what you've set yourself up to do.
Kitty
· 30 August 2006
· Chapter 2: Marching Orders
This story will be posted at a chapter every two-three days, I think, so don't be surprised if it isn't far advanced when you return. On the contrary, Larner! I’m glad of it, as it makes it a bit easier to catch up with reading and reviewing.
Norway was wonderful, by the way. The landscape is great! I’ll have to go there again. Though I missed my daily SoA fix – fanfiction is quite addictive, isn’t it?
Somehow even then it is obvious how Curumo will end – or it is only that I know it? Too proud and too intent to impress, not to mention arrogant ... I’m sure he wasn’t too pleased with Eärendil’s objections. But the Mariner was right, each time. Nice idea to have him there to give his advice, btw. And Manwe did everything he could to prevent Curumo from going astray, I’d say, though it wasn’t enough in the end.
Author's reply
It was a bit longer this time, but then I have other projects going as well. I've not been to Norway a yet, but hope to visit perhaps one day, although most of my own journeys tend to be to England, where I have friends and places I adore.
Knowing Saruman's end does make it easier to interpret where he does as he does it. I can't see him as accepting correction willingly.
Manwe does do his best to protect Curumo from his own hubris, but what can we say? Hubris is hubris in the end, and was Curumo's downfall from the start, I suspect.
grumpy
· 27 August 2006
· Chapter 4: Choices Made
Ah, they rest of the wizards are off and on there way. I do like your discriptions of each of them. Radaguast and Gandalf being my favorites.
Author's reply
Yes, all five are now set loose in Middle Earth, and it's about time.
Am so very glad you liked how I picture them. I admit to having used the familiar images from the movies, but have tried to keep it true to the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and LOTR.
And I still feel Tolkien might have sold Radagast a bit short.
French Pony
· 26 August 2006
· Chapter 4: Choices Made
Interesting that all of the subsequent Istari chose the forms of elderly Men. There's been no word from Curumo on how well the educated guess about that particular disguise played out, but everyone seems to think that it'll work. They seem to be counting on five different versions of the same approach (wise, elderly man) instead of diversifying and choosing five different approaches (elderly man, precocious child, hobbit, whatever) in case one or the other doesn't work out as intended. It shows either a great deal of trust in their own logic or a lack of imagination. Knowing the Valar, probably both.
I'm still intrigued by the choice to send these guys over an ocean in a skiff. It's not the idea of a long, physically trying journey to test their spiritual mojo. It's the choice of a skiff in particular. Skiffs are primarily designed for river fishing, and would hardly be my choice for crossing the open ocean.
Author's reply
It would have been interesting had Aewendil and the rest tried other races, but felt that the logic of the second chapter where Earendil is advising Manwe would pretty much hold for the rest. As for the lack of imagination on the part of the Valar--well, they do have that problem, don't they? (Grinning)
I may have blown it, for I'd merely understood that a skiff was a smaller craft capable of carrying sails, and so I'd used the term here. I admit almost all my sailing time has been in motorcraft, and I have no idea what name to give to the small vessels used here. Shall I change it, and if so, to what? I'm always grateful for more informed data than I possess.
harrowcat
· 26 August 2006
· Chapter 4: Choices Made
Wow! And so we have the making of or rather, the becoming of, Gandalf. Love the background of caring and light that you have given him and his relationship to Sauron! And so we see another layer of complexity as we recall that Gandalf says 'I was the enemy of Sauron.' Brilliant. I love the way that you have him being humble enough to be the only one to hand over so much of himself to the staff that he is given some back. Yet he also isn't found until he wants to be and only after he has considered what he is being asked to commit himself to!
I also endorse all that Dreamflower has said and so much better than I could, especially about Radagast.
For some reason the blue wizards had me thinking about the Magi or Kings at the Nativity! I know it is still August and Christmas is miles away but the leaves are just begining to turn here and there is Autumn in the morning air. My favourite time of the year is just around the corner and the acorns and conkers are getting ready to fall! (I'm not quite sure why I wrote this but I will let it stand.)
Author's reply
When I wrote that some of what he'd entrusted to the staff was given back to him, I was remembering the parable of the guest who seats himself way down the table from the host whom the host draws nearer to the host's own seat that he might have the proper honor due him. I can see this in Gandalf, can't you?
It was interesting to think how each of the chosen would have gone about making himself a proper shape for use in the project, and that each would go about it differently. I've always felt that in UT and the Sil Tolkien sold Radagast a bit short, feeling his dedication to nature and birds and beasts was a sign of failure. After all, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
And I think I've seen a FanFic in which Palando and Alatar and perhaps Radagast did serve as the Magi.... I'll have to search through FFN and HASA, as I would have read it there.
Dreamflower
· 26 August 2006
· Chapter 4: Choices Made
I really like what you have done with this chapter. The visuals are so strong, and show how much we who now read stories written in words still owe to the newer visual medium of film.
I was struck by this as I watched Radagast "morphing" into his new form--not something I could easily have imagined however well-described, I don't believe, without having seen similar special effects. And of course Olorin/Mithrandir/Gandalf--his appearance owed a lot to that of Ian McKellan in the movies. Yet for all that, it was not a distraction, but an enhancement. That really appeals to me, as my own preference in regard to the movies is to draw on the visuals and imagery, while keeping plot and character rooted in the books.
It is clear here, that Radagast's errand is *not quite* the same as that of the others--his commission is not to end, necessarily, when Sauron falls. The brothers, it seems, already know they will be spending time among Men who do not appear the same as those Men of the West. I am curious, very curious, as to how they knew this, and I look forward to seeing your speculation as to their mission, and its success or lack thereof.
I loved the way everyone was looking for Olorin! LOL! He was a bit on the sly side even as a full-blown Maia! I love the way he describes his relationship to Sauron, and compares it to that of Manwe and Melkor. It's clear that he is as well-loved among the Valar as he will become later among Men and Elves--and hobbits.
This gets more and more intriguing.
Author's reply
Yes, it started with Serelinde in "Willow"--the process of morphing shapes.
I did base the appearance of both Olorin and Curumo as Istari and their particular staves on Ian McKellan and Christopher Lee's appearances in the movies, of course; but I added back in the silver scarf described in the books and added in the two brooches Gandalf wears, feeling they would be consistent with Gandalf's nature and allegiances.
I personally feel that Radagast's dismissal by Tolkien was unwarranted, and that his dedication to animals, birds, and wild places would have its own part in both fighting Sauron and in the lands recovering afterwards.
Pallando and Alatar were sent by Orome and probably traveled the eastern lands with him long ago; now they use those memories in finding appropriate shapes for their current commissions.
And I think that Olorin would make good and certain in himself he was ready for this service before coming forward and accepting it.
So glad you approve!
grumpy
· 23 August 2006
· Chapter 3: The Voyage
Great story. So that was why the Istar, were sent as old men. Earendil was very wise, when he did speak.
I loved it that he ate all his bait, that he was supose to use fish with.
Author's reply
This was the reason given in the Silmarillion for them being given that shape, and so I thought to make it a bit clearer perhaps WHY the shape of elderly Men would have been chosen. The use of the staff to hold the power, experience, and knowledge of the Maia is my own extrapolation on known facts, given the situation and why it was important that Saruman accused Gandalf of wanting the rods of the five wizards as well as why he was asked to surrender his staff and then had it broken. That would be to abandon him to the world of Men altogether, and only his most native abilities such as his slyness and his ability to use his voice to dominate the thoughts of others would remain to him.
And perhaps in part due to his discomfort with his current shape and situation, Curumo is quicker to forget what he's recently been told than he would have been had he perhaps been allowed the original princely shape he'd tried first.
And Earendil, personally knowledgeable about the life of both Men and Elves, would be a voice I believe Manwe would listen to. Too bad Curumo didn't take a page out of Manwe's book and realize that everyone needs experienced counsel from time to time.
Raksha The Demon
· 23 August 2006
· Chapter 3: The Voyage
Now I know why Manwe & co. granted Curumo's request to go to Middle-Earth - they were heartily sick of him and his high-and-mighty attitude!
I suppose Curumo is thinking that the lowly Second-born of Ennor will scrape and bow to him and gratefully take whatever scraps of knowledge he might kindly bestow upon him.
At this point, I think he almost deserves the joys of rheumatism, sleeplessness, and the common cold that the vicissitudes of mortal life, even Maiar-inhabited, will bring him.
Osse and Uinen were very kind and patient with Curumo; as were the long-suffering Elves who also tried to teach him. A shame that he was too impatient to heed them!
No wonder Cirdan gave Narya to Olorin!
Author's reply
Yes, Curumo does make one want him gone and on his way just to have ones hands free of him, doesn't he? And if Curumo thinks Men will bow and scrape, he shows therein just how little experience he has with them, doesn't he?
One tries to be kind to children, and in spite of his current appearance as an old Man, Curumo is definitely inexperienced with pretty much everything except erudite knowledge, the workings of Aule's forge, and the company of those attached to Aule's train; but in the end most folk of any kind will find such attitudes highly distasteful.
Armariel
· 22 August 2006
· Chapter 3: The Voyage
Eek, I can just see Saruman in a pointy hat, lol.....
You will find that such utterances, once listened to seriously, are seductive and must be repeatedly thrust from one. Very true. An almost Hawthornesque utterance.
I thought this was going to be about Gandalf, but I think it's more interesting to read of Saruman...because he's such a bad egg I suppose *g*
Author's reply
Yes, who's going to win through in the end, the one who accepts and embraces the pointy hat or the one who doesn't? But in the end this is about those three wizards of whom we remain aware, so you can believe Gandalf will appear a good deal.
A Hawthornesque utterance? Yes, a good description indeed, I think. Thank you.
Saruman is an interesting one to consider--I have to agree with you there.
French Pony
· 22 August 2006
· Chapter 3: The Voyage
Curumo the Arrogant gets at least a little comeuppance here, I see. The bit with the hat was cute. It is completely out of character for someone like Curumo to wear it, but it is so very in character for Olorin. Perhaps the hat is the real key to resisting the might of Sauron. Only the Istar who can humble himself enough to wear a pointy hat can acquire the necessary wisdom.
Speaking of wisdom, what an interesting choice, to send someone on a two-week sea voyage alone in a skiff. Was this also intended to teach humility? Or perhaps to toughen up a creature used to the comforts of Aman?
Author's reply
Actually, French Pony, you have managed to point out ideas of which I'd only barely thought on, but which are indeed true. ONLY one who knew humility could win through in the end, as you have so astutely pointe out.
He was given the choice between a fairly swift voyage with Earendil and Aiwendil, or this protracted one by himself, and you see what he chose. Humility and learning the nature of the limitations of his new bodily form I suspect were indeed part of the reason for this choice. That, and the chance to speak with Osse and learn from Osse's experiences and observations. But will he choose to remember any of it is the question.
harrowcat
· 22 August 2006
· Chapter 3: The Voyage
I have just sat down with time enough to appreciate these three chapters Larner. It is great and I am looking forward to seeing how you develop each of these characters. I haven't made time to explore much of the rest of Tolkien's work so this is also exciting. I have often wondered about the the fate and history of the 'five' wizards. I love the concept of the staffs (or should the plural be staves?)containing much of their power and wisdom. I also like the very 'other worldly' tone of the beginning of this. Very much looking forward to more.
Author's reply
The proper plural is staves, but I doubt many are aware of that, of course.
There had to be a proper reason why the Wizards would carry such things and why the breaking of them would be such a potential disaster in their eyes. Without access to their proper power and memories and experience as Maiar in their true form, they were limited to those memories and skills they'd built up for themselves as Wizards caught in the shapes of Men, which would be terrifying for someone like Curumo, I'd think.
Am so glad the story is already catching your imagination so.
Linda Hoyland
· 22 August 2006
· Chapter 3: The Voyage
It must have been very hard for the Maiar to get used to there different bodies.
BTW, I am now putting new stories on my LJ as well as the other site, a nice plain interface and no ads of any sort. I try them out there and polish for here.
Author's reply
I agree--it would indeed be difficult for Maiar to accustom themselves to the bodies and limitations of mankind, minus the relatively short lifespan, of course.
I'll have to find some way to get into my email and download it so I can get your livejournal url. Once I get my own computer back up and online I'll do that. Don't want to risk my daughter and son-in-law's machine.
Linda Hoyland
· 22 August 2006
· Chapter 2: Marching Orders
I like your explanation for why the Istari took the forms they did.
Author's reply
Very glad you do, Linda. Thank you.
Lindelea
· 22 August 2006
· Chapter 1: Debate in Valinor
My goodness, you are ambitious!
I glanced at this only, tonight, and will have to set it aside for later reading. My eyes are closing even as I type.
But look forward to reading, and knowing how you research, I'm sure I'll learn quite a lot along the way.
Did you say you were coming down our way again soon? We have found the most wonderful little pizza place, right in our neighbourhood.
Author's reply
I hope the week after Labor Day. I'd hoped to come down for Meesh's birthday the first, but can't, as I have to work, durn it anyway. But there's no question I NEED the extra pay.
Do they serve anything besides pizza? Sorry, but I have the digestive system from unmentionable places, and it just doesn't bear well with tomato sauce and cheese mixed together for some reason no one's been able to fathom. Some places do have chicken or something similar, and I could handle that.
Dreamflower
· 21 August 2006
· Chapter 3: The Voyage
Never did want to listen to anyone, did he? *sigh* He must have been extremely frustrating to those who had to attempt to teach him.
I look forward to seeing the arrival of the others...
Author's reply
Yes, self-centeredness doesn't work any better for wizards than it does for men, does it? Poor Curumo, already on his way to being the Saruman we have come to hate.