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All for Her by SoundofHorns	26 Review(s)
Elendiari22	Reviewed Chapter: 60 on 10/2/2004
Reading all of these wonderful comments makes me want to make some brilliant insights of my own, but sadly, I am not well versed enough in the Rohirrim to do so, even thought they are my favorite LOTR culture. I would have to agree with Drake and Crimson about Eomer, though. They're spot on with what they say. I hope that you all keep these comments going; they're extraordinarily interesting to read after a long, stressful day of classes. Thank you!

Drake	Reviewed Chapter: 60 on 10/2/2004
Crimson, As far as your reviews are concerned, I was only posting to interject my opinion that Eomer had very good reason to try and convince Theoden to stay behind in Rohan. It was the other people that were saying they hate Eomer that the heat of my review was directed toward. Sorry if you misunderstood.

Adamas	Reviewed Chapter: 60 on 10/1/2004
"Sound of Horns" you have your very own "Inklings". I love reading the reviews as much as the story. :0) I hope all of this discussion is inspiring you, and we can look forward to see the next chapter really soon. As for the rest of your reviewing fans don’t stop the discussion its great reading.

BKB	Reviewed Chapter: 60 on 10/1/2004
BTW, did you hear the one about the tenor who...

Raksha The Demon	Reviewed Chapter: 60 on 9/30/2004
"Author Reply: You'd better have tissues soon, then. The next chapters change everything. I'm just sayin'. And thanks on Eomer's characterization. :) He's done a lot with the comparitively little POV I've given him. Faramir hasn't had to deal with half the shit he's dealing with and will deal with. Faramir hasn't HAD to change much, therefore he's stayed the same. Inertia, I guess." Oh dear. Faramir hasn't had to change much and has stayed the same? That's unfortunate, or will be for him. He DOES have to change. He's gone from being a disregarded (by his lord and father) younger son in command of a few hundred Rangers out in the boonies to Steward of Gondor and Prince of Ithilien, the man who must hold the realm together in the King's absence and help the King rebuild it. He might well have to help Aragorn learn to be King of Gondor; several years spent as Ecthelion's favorite Captain 30 years ago would not have necessarily prepared Aragorn to cope with the rule of the Reunited Kingdom. Faramir grew up in the corridors of power and I think Aragorn will need his help, at least for awhile. Not to mention restoring Ithilien to the Garden of Gondor, clearing out and reclaiming Minas Morgul. Faramir has huge responsibilities. If he hasn't changed, or won't, he'll have a lot of trouble. So far in ALL FOR HER, Faramir is adapting to being alone, learning to make a life for himself without his father or brother advising or commanding him. That's already a huge change...And then there's the matter of adjusting to the return of the King. Of course, Aragorn is acting like a lovelorn teenager rather than the King of the West, so Faramir has time. I wonder who's minding the store back in Minas Tirith... Author Reply: All I meant was Faramir hasn't changed YET, fully.. He's in the process of doing all the things you've mentioned, but he can't just presto-chango be everything he's meant to be. Once he gets through this and back to the City we'll see a lot of his duties. Which he does have a lot of. I, too, wonder who's running Minas Tirith. Apparently Frodo wasn't informed.

Crimson	Reviewed Chapter: 60 on 9/30/2004
Bodkin, way to go on figuring out the source of the quote! Sorry, BKB, you’re right it’s from the Bible, but I’m going to have to give this one to Bodkin for figuring out the exact verse. It’s from the Magnificat (Luke 1:52). I believe the translation I used is from the New Jerusalem Bible, which Tolkien helped translate. I’m not sure if it was translated from the Vulgate [deposuit potentes de sede et exaltavit humiles] or the Greek [sorry, this webpage doesn't like my Greek letters!], but both translate about the same, give or take word preferences for poetic considerations (i.e. “humble” vs. “lowly,” “mighty” vs. “kings” or “dynasties,” “thrones” vs. “seats of power,” “scattered” vs. “put aside or laid down.”) And because I am a woman of my word, I’m ready to pay up. Where can I send the $20? Do you accept paypal? I’m totally serious. I put that challenge out there because I wanted to see how many classically educated college students are left in the world. My uncle is a philologist (just like the good Professor!) and chair of the Germanics department at the University of Washington (hey, Sound of Horns – one of his specialties is Old English. Do you think I should send him your Rohirric dialogue to see how accurate your translations are?). He’s complained to me that his undergraduate students don’t have a firm grounding in western lit, the Bible in particular. And how can they understand Chaucer, Dante, Shakespeare, Milton, Goethe, et al without a basic knowledge of the Bible? But don’t get me started on my rant about college core curriculums and the Canon of Western Lit. I could be here all day… At any rate, congrats on identifying the quote. Sound of Horns, you have some smart reviewers here! Drake, Drake, Drake… to quote Gaer, “You wound me.” I love the character of Eomer! I would never want to imply that he’s a schmuck. Please forgive me if I gave that impression. I, for one, have never been harsh on Eomer in my reviews of this story. I think his behavior is entirely understandable in “All for Her.” But to be fair, even you admitted that in his duty to protect Eowyn, “He failed, though, and likely to his own anguish,” even though it wasn’t “for lack of trying.” Haven’t you ever felt guilty about something that either you did, failed to do, or were unable to stop – even though you did your best? Haven’t you ever felt guilty about something that was not even in your power to change? Soldiers who survive wars often feel what is referred to as “survivor’s guilt.” They feel guilt because they lived and their friends died. They obviously had nothing to do with their friend’s death, but they feel guilty anyways. Of course, Eomer did his best, but sadly his best wasn’t good enough. You can’t really argue with the cold hard facts that “on Eomer's watch, Eowyn was stalked and nearly raped by a disgusting man, and then she decided to ride out & kill herself.” But this doesn’t in any way mean that he is less of a hero or less of a good man. After all, technically speaking Frodo was a failure! He failed his mission. Tolkien himself wrote that in his letters many times: "Frodo indeed 'failed' as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not endure to the end; he gave in, ratted." (JRRT letter to Mrs. Eileen Elgar, September 1963) However, that was not the final word on the meaning of Frodo’s failure. That was not the message that JRRT was trying to get across. He also wrote: "No, Frodo 'failed'. It is possible that once the ring was destroyed he had little recollection of the last scene. But one must face the fact: the power of Evil in the world is not finally resistible by incarnate creatures, however 'good'; and the Writer of the Story is not one of us." (JRRT letter to Miss J. Burn, July 26, 1956) Get it? No one could have won on their own power. They couldn’t during the war with Melkor and they couldn’t during the war with Sauron. In both instances it took an act of “the Writer of the Story” to save the day. One of the reasons why I love the character of Eomer is that he is uniquely humble in heart. He is wise enough to ask for help and advice. Our introduction to Eomer in TTT is his meeting with Aragorn. We see that Eomer is doubtful and uncertain who to trust and what to do. He asks Aragorn, "How shall a man judge what to do in such times?" Aragorn’s answer gives Tolkien’s attack on moral relativism: "As he has ever judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among men. It is a man’s part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house." Eomer was convinced, even though his Riders were still skeptical. He trusted a total stranger out of faith. He had an instinctual ability to recognize truth and wisdom. He’s quite simply one of my favorite characters in LOTR. But I do think he would have had a sense of guilt about his failure to see just how much his sister was in despair. During the conversation that ensues after Aragorn heals Eowyn, Gandalf tells Eomer: “‘My friend, you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonored dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff that he leaned on. Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Theodens ears? Dotard! What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigards drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs? Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister’s love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips, you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?’ Then Eomer was silent, and looked on his sister, as if pondering anew all the days of their past life together.” At that moment I think Eomer must have felt incredible grief and guilt. Not because he didn’t realize that Wormtongue was stalking his sister, but because he didn’t really appreciating how much his sister was in despair. Could he have done anything to stop it? Probably not. Is he responsible for her despair in any way? Absolutely not. Did he do his best to protect her? I’m sure he did. Was it good enough? Apparently not. Was he able to make her want to live again after Aragorn healed her? Sadly, no. She still wanted to ride out to death. It was Faramir who made her want to live again. Exploring all of this will not render Eomer into a 2-dimensional character. It will do the precise opposite! At any rate, I’m thoroughly enjoying these discussions! Thanks, Drake, Raksha, BKB, Bodkin, and, of course, Sound of Horns. Let’s keep this thread going. It’s fun. Admittedly, it’s geek fun, but come on; it’s not like we’re telling opera jokes…(at least not yet.)

Bodkin	Reviewed Chapter: 60 on 9/30/2004
'He has scattered the proud, brought down the mighty from their thrones and exalted the humble.' Luke 1:52-53 Although in the Authorised Version it reads; 'He hath scattered the proud in the imatination of their hearts. He hath put down the mighty from their seats, And exalted them of low degree.'

BKB	Reviewed Chapter: 60 on 9/30/2004
I not only love this story, but all the reviews, critiques and analyses that it sparks! I swear that they are better written and more interesting than at least half the stories posted on fan fiction sites. Kudos to Sound of Horns and applause for Crimson, Raksha, Drake and all the other reviewers. To Crimson: I'm quite sure that the quote you mentioned ("He has scattered the proud...") is from the Bible. I'll try to find time at work during the next few days to check the appropriate concordance to confirm this guess and also give you chapter and verse as well.

RAKSHA THE DEMON	Reviewed Chapter: 60 on 9/30/2004
"Basically, this guy has had a great deal MORE than a fair share of troubles. How can anyone say he's been miserable at protecting Eowyn when he's had to juggle duty, country, and family under such tumultuous circumstances? That is why it's making me mad to hear this talk of people hating Eomer over his treatment of Faramir. There is talk about not making people 2-dimensional; don't do the same to Eomer. Sound of Horns has him pretty well pegged as the complex person he really is. Eomer is man who, while jovial in nature, has nearly lost everything that is dear to him. I agree; he has to let Eowyn go, and he has to accept Faramir has a good man who will take care of her. But, I say again, can you blame him completely for his actions? This man's life is full of bitterness and sadness that has been difficult to overcome, but like the strong-hearted person that Eomer is, he's making an effort to overcome all of his anquish and despair. He'll eventually come around, as I believe Sound of Horns has suggested in her story. Give him time, and I'm certain you all will come to love him once you begin to understand the person he really is." I really think SoundofHorns has done a marvelous job characterising Eomer; better in fact than she's done with Faramir (though her Faramir is pretty darn good). In this story, Eomer is a basically very decent man who is overwhelmed by the rapid changes in his life after a period of long horror, sadness, and constant danger. He tries to be at least publicly courteous to a man he dislikes and fears, Faramir, because of the changes Faramir represents in his and Eowyn's life. Faramir is the catalyst for Eowyn's growth and change; she is changing from Eomer's dear little sister to a sexually aware young woman preparing to leave hearth and home for a life and home of her own as another man's wife. And of course Faramir's mind-reading abilities scare Eomer; whose kingdom and friends and family suffered from the spells and actions of a renegade wizard. It's sad, though necessary, that Eomer recognize Eowyn's love for Faramir and the fact that she will leave Rohan for him. Every time Eomer sees another implication of the changes that are separating his sister from him, I want to cry a bit, even though the siblings will survive and grow stronger. As for protecting Eowyn, her brother did the best that he could. He couldn't stay in Meduseld and guard her 24 hours a day, he had to think of the Mark first, which must have been hard for him. And it must have been agonizing for Eomer when Eowyn was found unconscious and presumed dead on the Pelennor; he'd thought her safe in Dunharrow or Edoras... Author Reply: You'd better have tissues soon, then. The next chapters change everything. I'm just sayin'. And thanks on Eomer's characterization. :) He's done a lot with the comparitively little POV I've given him. Faramir hasn't had to deal with half the shit he's dealing with and will deal with. Faramir hasn't HAD to change much, therefore he's stayed the same. Inertia, I guess.

Drake	Reviewed Chapter: 60 on 9/29/2004
Crimson wrote: "2) Eomer’s counsel to Theoden during the Muster of Rohan. Before the point of no return in their journey to aid Gondor, Eomer whispers to Theoden, “if you take my counsel you would [stay in Edoras] until the war is over, lost or won.” Pretty cynical advice. Theoden basically tells him to “get thee behind me” and rides out to Gondor and into a glorious end." I understand what you are saying concerning the difference between prudence and idealism. Prudence, when dealing with Sauron, was very rarely the correct course of action. However, this is just a little different. Can you really blame Eomer? After having both his parents and his cousin die, how can he sit idly by and not try to convine Theoden at least once to stay behind? Sure, they are both Rohirrim, and Eomer knows that Theoden would prefer a glorious death in battle than to sit at home twiddling his thumbs, waiting for what may be an inevitable end, but he feels he must do something to try and protect his family before they all end up dead (Which, for one frightening day they were, in his eyes). Which is what makes me upset about this talk of Eomer failing miserably to protect Eowyn. It's not for lack of trying. Put yourself in his shoes, if you will. Orcs are multiplying rapidly and their appearances in Rohan are increasing day by day. In addition, The Uruk-hai are also about, only they are able to move by sunlight. Theoden's mind and strength are failing due to Wormtongue's whisperings. As a result, Grima has near complete control over Rohan. The only two people standing in his way are Theodred and Eomer, but even their power is minute considering Theoden will do anything Grima advises. If either of them should rise openly against Grima, i.e. attack or kill him, they would more than likely be put to death due to the extensive poisoning of Theoden's mind. To qoute: "Nay, Eomer, you do not fully understand the mind of Master Wormtongue," said Gandalf, turning his piercing gaze upon him. "He is bold and cunning. Even now he plays a game with peril and wins a throw. Hours of my precious time he has wasted already. Down, snake!" he said suddenly in a terrible voice. "Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps." Eomer grasped his sword. "That I knew already," he muttered. "For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall. But there are other reasons." He stepped forward, but Gandalf stayed him with his hand. "Eowyn is safe now," he said. TTT, The King of the Golden Hall This suggests to me that Eomer knew well of Grima's treachery and his lusting after Eowyn, and took it upon himself to attempt Grima's life. He failed, though, and likely to his own anquish. My guess is he grew desperate. He could have tried to kill Grima before, but if he failed then, Eowyn really would be completely alone against Wormtongue. I think he saw, after what happened to Theodred, that it would be only a matter of time until he met the same end, so he decided to make an all-or-nothing attempt to get rid of Grima in order to PROTECT his sister, no matter the cost to himself once Theoden found out. Basically, this guy has had a great deal MORE than a fair share of troubles. How can anyone say he's been miserable at protecting Eowyn when he's had to juggle duty, country, and family under such tumultuous circumstances? That is why it's making me mad to hear this talk of people hating Eomer over his treatment of Faramir. There is talk about not making people 2-dimensional; don't do the same to Eomer. Sound of Horns has him pretty well pegged as the complex person he really is. Eomer is man who, while jovial in nature, has nearly lost everything that is dear to him. I agree; he has to let Eowyn go, and he has to accept Faramir has a good man who will take care of her. But, I say again, can you blame him completely for his actions? This man's life is full of bitterness and sadness that has been difficult to overcome, but like the strong-hearted person that Eomer is, he's making an effort to overcome all of his anquish and despair. He'll eventually come around, as I believe Sound of Horns has suggested in her story. Give him time, and I'm certain you all will come to love him once you begin to understand the person he really is.

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