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Lesser Ring by Larner	7 Review(s)
Dreamflower	Reviewed Chapter: 39 on 9/20/2005
A very interesting punishment--to be sealed into one of the old Temples of the Dark Lord. shudder You put such an original twist on things sometimes. I'd never have anticipated this. Author Reply: Oh, I am very pleased to know you see it as a unique way of dealing with the situation and the malefactors in question. And am glad you are catching up so quickly.

Tigger	Reviewed Chapter: 39 on 9/12/2005
Wow...Just judgements indeed. The ones of the fallen priest and the relative of the Farozi were exactly what they deserved. I also loved Aragorn explaining why he wanted Melian and Eldarion w/them when the judgements were given out. Then to see that Ankrabi understood his younger twin needed that same thing...Excellently done. As always, looking forward to the next chapter. :o) Author Reply: To be shut in an empty temple devoted to one who chose power over his intended purpose would have to be about the worst thing in the world to contemplate, wouldn't it? And am so glad you approve of the inclusion of Aragorn and Arwen's children and Amon'osiri in the trial, learning what they must for when it is their turns to sit in judgment--as well as Amon'osiri being certain that what had happened to his brother wouldn't continue. Thanks so much for the feedback.

Kitty	Reviewed Chapter: 39 on 9/12/2005
The desert people have a quite drastic way to prove someone's death, haven't they? I'm glad nobody sends me this sort of proof! shudders The pictures in the film with the heads the orcs threw at Minas Tirith were ghastly enough! After a bit thinking, Aragorn was probably right about the presence of the children at the sentence of the prisoners. Although I can understand Soh'rabi - I would've tried to protect them from this unpleasant business, too! But I agree with Ankhrabi why Amon'osiri should be there. He needs this reassurance. Mayanerini was a very nasty woman, and I am glad she can poison no one more. Her poor husband! And I hope her son-in-law is alive and can be rescued and reunited with his family! The rest of the judgment was interesting. Another lesson about blind obedience. And to be honest, Sa'Gebankhrabi was bad enough, but if I had to argue with Setra'amun and to try to understand him, in the long run I'd end up with a knot in the brain! You're right, that's mind-boggling. And you were right in another point - it was not only a bit shocking, but somehow very appropriate as well how the both of them were punished. Author Reply: The heads shot over the walls in the film came directly, of course, from the books themselves, and I was so glad to see them, fearful that the horrors of Mordor would end up being glossed over. In most cases we tend to wallow too much in horrors and atrocities; that Tolkien used this on instance to show the effects of psychological warfare at its worst made it a far more powerful image in the end in both book and movie. People who live more subsistence-level lives do tend to be more brutal in their actions toward traitors, and are more hardened to such things--we see it in dealing with many cultures where lopping off the hands of thieves is done routinely. I felt this would prove a good contrast between the more refined actions of the Farozi's folk in their cities and those of the tribes living in the desert areas. I've seen so many bizarre things done trying to protect children--had a friend who didn't want her daughter to read my Mad Magazines because they might teach her irreverence to authority; but she rented National Lampoon's Vacation for the same children at age six and eight, and I was left going, HUH???? No irreverence for authority, but okay to see a dog dragged to death, a girl turning on to drugs and sex, carrying around Gramma's body because it was too much trouble to deal with it properly, and so on??????? OOOOOOKAAAYYYY! Oh, the examples of such weird thinking and often totally bizarre twists of logic are too numerous to number! I tried to be honest about the world with my kids as my Mom was with us; trouble was that they became certain that the shows on television and the tales I told them were all fabricated just to "control them" and "deny them fun." Letting them accept personal responsibility for the results of their choices and actions was the hardest thing we as parents could ever do, but it was worth it in the end. I like to think that with their longer lives preparing them to be parents Aragorn and Arwen would have managed to realize that the children have to see from early on how judgements are made, how people act and how it affects others, how they need to be dealt with to stop them from going on to do worse things. The punishment for Gebankhrabi and Setra'amun started out as a means in my own story I've been working with for dealing with those who choose evil. But trying to think up a proper punishment in any other way just didn't work for the people I'd made up; and I found it just fitted for these two as well. Obviously this chapter has stirred up a lot of thought on several levels. Thanks for the feedback.

Radbooks	Reviewed Chapter: 39 on 9/12/2005
Wonderful chapter once again. I liked where Aragorn was talking about having his children present when justice was handed out. That they see true justice as they grow up and not wait until we think they are ready. Kids do see and understand a LOT more than we give them credit for. I see that with my children at school, they do know from a very early age the difference between right and wrong. Then later on when he was talking with the first man who was trying to say that we need to teach fear. That's so true - who needs to teach that?! I love this quote here as it so true: “Is pleasure not enough to give life meaning? Is seeing a goal and striving for it not enough? Is sharing delight not enough? Is receiving the love and respect and honor of those from whom such has meaning not enough? And what meaning is there to an existence in which one cannot know the Presence?” There was so much more there in that section, but I can't quote it all! :) It was all so very good and so very, very true. Nicely done. Fitting punishments were given to them as well - horrible - but fitting. Truly justice was done. Oh, I liked the realistic comment of Sa’Harpelamun when he said he would rather be back in the Valley where everything was familiar and he wouldn't have to think about what was going to happen to his brother. While of course no one would want to see their brother die as he justly deserves as he well knows. I was thinking that most people are also afraid to leave that which is familiar to go see something new. He has some interesting times ahead of him. Author Reply: Yes, this would be an extremely difficult time for Harpelamun, both being forced to leave the familiar and to lose a brother. So many times twins in Middle Earth have been faced with choices that either sundered them or bonded them more closely together. With the sons of Ankhrabi hopefully it will aid to nurture their relationship so that they continue to work together as Sohrabi learned to do with Amonrabi rather than working on differentiation to the point of insanity as Setra'amun has done. As for trying to teach things that don't need to be taught--Stephen Pinker was contrasting Western culture in general with that of the pygmy peoples of Africa. They find our obsession with trying to elicit speech from our very young children laughable, while they do all they can to assist the child to sit up unaided and to stand, where most Westerners realize that these things the children will do on their own when they are ready. In reality both skills are hardwired into our brains, and given the opportunity and examples around them, children will do pretty well learning both activities on their own without having to be groomed to them. And here was the chance to reinforce the spiritual values and truths that LOTR has embraced and teaches, although less overtly.

Bodkin	Reviewed Chapter: 39 on 9/12/2005
Good point about letting children see justice administered from an early age. And that Amon’osiri needs to see it in order to be reassured. The fate of Gebankhrabi and Setra’amun is rather scary. And perhaps questions should be asked about leaving the twins in the care of the priests when it doesn't seem to have been the right place for Setra’amun. It would seem that he needed to be in the outside world, before his mind became twisted into delighting only in his own cleverness. I feel sorry for his brother. I hope the woman's husband is found safely - and that the little girls recover. Her mother sounds more than a little insane. More than a lot, actually. Author Reply: A friend has served as foster mother to countless children who had been emotionally and physically abused, and the case of Mayanerini is broadly based on one of the case histories she became familiar with. Obsessive mother wanted to force her grown daughter to remain in emotional bondage, trying to keep the relationship always in the nurturing mother-dependant daughter mode. What the children experienced was pretty horrible. Much as the situation with Varondil in The King's Commission, much of this particular situation is dealing with situations that, unfortunately, happen in real life. Setra'amun is loosely based on a mixture of about four individuals who are bipolar in their more bizarre states. In many cases these as children would manufacture in their minds completely unrealistic "what-ifs" and become obsessive of them, working through elaborate schemes to deal with almost any contingency that could possibly happen should the particular "what-if" should ever happen. At the same time, real dangers would be facing them and doing everything but beating them about the heads and shoulders, and they'd just blindly continue in their careers. It's as if they were driving down the road and a brick wall was way ahead of them where the road ends or turns, and they were drawing a picture of some completely different danger so as to distract themselves from the real one they actually faced. Watching them drive right into the brick wall again and again was heartbreaking at times. And I'd think Aragorn and Arwen would want their children's lives firmly grounded, and to have them from their earliest ages have a realistic idea of what a King is SUPPOSED to do and be like. They wouldn't want their heirs to be spoiled idiots. Thanks so much for the feedback.

harrowcat	Reviewed Chapter: 39 on 9/12/2005
Ooh, powerful stuff Larner! The need for our children to see the consequences of true justice from the earliest of ages was thought-provoking. My initial reaction was to agree that it was not the place for them. I wanted to protect them from 'adult' things but your argument rings true. A little more of this and we would not need 'reality' shows on TV about mis-behaving Kids. Children need to experience justice and fairness and consistancy too. And the discussion about following orders and true worship really touched close to home. I work for a church as a teacher (Catechist) and I want to thank you for so clearly expressing many of the reasons I do what I do. Author Reply: As a special ed teacher and a former substitute teacher I've seen so many people do such odd things attempting to "protect" their children that it's a wonder many of them have any idea what real life could be like. It has been bizarre at times, like the arguments over whether or not Harry Potter teaches witchcraft as practiced by Wiccans (which, of course, it certainly doesn't! GAACK!) So many who took part in atrocities such as the Holocaust and the My Lai massacres and similar things were "only following orders," when in reality they knew they were doing things that were wrong and only sought to lessen their own guilt by blaming their superiors. And true worship isn't just going to church and mouthing empty words before returning home to beat the wife and abuse the kids and fight with the neighbors; nor is it trying to coax people to "demonstrate their faith" by tithing more than their family can afford or taking part in bizarre activities such as handling poisonous snakes or refusing proper medical attention to their children. I'm so glad that you found so much that is true to life for you here.

lindahoyland	Reviewed Chapter: 39 on 9/11/2005
A gripping trial scene,justice was done.I agree that it is best children know the truth and see what happens.When I was young,my Mother wanted me to attend my aunt's funeral and the vicar would not allow it,which made me very nervous when I had to attend a funeral when older. I enjoyed seeing more of Faramir in this chapter and the way Aragorn refers to him. I loved the scene with aragorn and the twins. Author Reply: Having a good example before us as we face and make choices is important; and I realized that in spite of their rocky beginnings my stepson and adopted daughter both ended up in some ways a bit too protected, leading to some difficult times when they were teenagers. But I've seen parents of some of my students who have done such bizarre things thinking they're "protecting" their children which ended up backfiring on them over time; I prefer to think Aragorn and Arwen would want their children to see good examples from childhood, and to know from early on what their parents' positions entailed, so they didn't grow up to be the royal brats described in Mercedes Lackey's Valdimar stories about the early years of Princess Elspeth. And Aragorn and Faramir would, I think, have developed a good relationship, both on the personal and working levels. Of course Faramir would be "my beloved friend and counselor" to Aragorn, as well as developing an equally loving relationship to that of Aragorn and Eomer, but based on completely different traits--intellectual, shared heritage, shared duties, closer proximity, a simple deep affection to help avoid and partially fill the holes left by the loss of brothers, parents, close friends, and so on. And with the examples of other twins and brothers to think on, I think Aragorn would wish the relationship between Ma'osiri and Amon'osiri properly nurtured.

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