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Dreamflower's Musings by Dreamflower	10 Review(s)
Mîdhaer	Reviewed Chapter: 6 on 8/7/2009
I have an interesting question for you. Why does everyone think Sauron became more powerful when he made the Ring? If the Ring's power is just a large part of Sauron's power, than Sauron could not have put any more power into the Ring than he himself possessed. Is the Ring a focal point for Sauron's power? Or is there something else involved. Please reply. I'd really like your opinion. Thanks, Mîdhaer Author Reply: The idea was not that he became more powerful. The idea was that he was creating something that would give him specific power that he did not previously possess-- that of directly controlling the free races. You see, he tricked the Elves into making the Three, the Seven and the Nine (which by the way, were all originally intended only for Elves, not for Dwarves or Men). His idea was to make the One, which would control the Elven rings, and thus give him the power of controlling the Elves, whom he hated. It didn't work out that way. Celebrimbor knew when the One was activated, and the Elven rings were removed and hidden. But Sauron was able to get hold of the Seven and the Nine, and since he could not get the Elves to use them, he distributed them to Dwarves and Men. The power of the One was domination over the Three, the Seven and the Nine. In the case of the Seven, it didn't work too well because of the nature of Dwarves, though it did exacerbate their inherent greed. In the case of the Nine, it worked very well indeed. At any rate, he had put a lot of himself into the Ring in order to accomplish his goal, and so when he was sundered from the One, he lost that part of his power. The reason he wanted it back so badly was that when he got it, he would be as powerful as he used to be. This is a very oversimplified explanation, and there is a lot of discussion among experts about just why and how the One Ring worked, but I hope it answers your question.

Queen Galadriel	Reviewed Chapter: 6 on 4/29/2009
You know, now that I'm no longer writing fanfic of my own, I've become something of a purist. Not such a purist that I can't enjoy other talented authors' suppositions and "what-ifs," and certainly the better AU tales, but enough that some of these crazy "Hollywood" theories really, really get under my skin! I've long thought that some tend to overexagerate the Ring in a way unbecoming to Tolkien's work, because it makes absolutely no sense. If the Ring was all-powerful, well, there would be no story, and this point would not be discussed. You've done a really excellent job bringing out the heart of the matter and backing it up with an amount of canon evidence that I probably never would have found, enough that it can't easily be disputed. Frodo next! The movie image must be destroyed! ;) Okay, so I'm fine with blue eyes; they've become a part of his character to me. But there's so much else that just never should have been done. I guess it's not all the creators' fault; there's only so much you can show in a movie, after all, and inner dialog gets chucked out - too bad, as that's where the really heroic moments take place. But they made him look like such a weakling, ugh! You do address that point wonderfully in your stories, though. So bravo, all around! Author Reply: I do miss your fic, dear! I hope someday you take it up again! It was not only PJ who decided that the Ring must be overwhelmingly powerful, though his images, I think, really stick in the mind much more. But, as I said in the essay, JRRT himself seems to keep emphasizing the great irresistable Ring--and yet, as I said, though that's what he tells us, what he shows us is quite different, and underlies the entire structure of the story. I think PJ did a wonderful job on the visual imagery of the movies, and in bringing M-e to life, and in uniting the story with a remarkable music score by Howard Shore, all mighty accomplishments. But the subtleties of characterization are not one of his strong points, and of course they lost even more in the time constraints of a film. As for Frodo's characterization-- when the Ring is put in its proper perspective, Frodo's character would "correct itself". I suppose you could say that in the movies, Frodo's character was sacrificed so that the Ring would have more of a character. (And even Movie Frodo was not quite such a weakling as some fic writers make him appear!)

Virtuella	Reviewed Chapter: 6 on 11/29/2008
Pasting MEFA review: Wow, Barbara, this was one facinating essay! I'm glad I came across it. What a very astute examination of the exact nature of the ring. I was particularly interested in the concept of the ring's "blind spot". You are right, it could only overwhelm people who were already much in the same "mould" as Sauron. Likewise, it is very conceivable that its lures failed because they were so over the top. Especially in Sam's case that is very evident. I would like to add to this a more formal thought: The talk of the absolutely irresisteble power of the ring is a hyperbole that is necessary to perpetuate the plot. The epic story of LOTR could not have been based on a ring that was merely said to be rather powerful and dangerous - just like in a fairy tale you would never talk of a princess being merely "quite a nice looking lass". On the other hand, the ring had to be flawed and limited, because otherwise it would have overwhelemed everybody and then there would have been no story. The tension betwen the perception of the ring as being all-powerful and the reality of it not quite getting a hold of people is the catalyst by which the story is developed. Mind you, I would never have thought of it in this way, had I not read your clever essay!

cathleen	Reviewed Chapter: 6 on 8/25/2008
I've really gotten a great deal out of all these essays and I hope you do another one very soon!

GamgeeFest	Reviewed Chapter: 6 on 7/7/2008
He forgot he himself was a mere creation, and that Love, Mercy and Grace came from One far more Powerful than himself. Bravo! claps Very well put. I agree that the Ring does go into ‘overkill’ mode with its influence and visions of power, but then, that is all it knows. The One, however, knows All and so by extension does everyone else that he created. Sauron did at one time also, but he allowed himself to forget these things as he fell into the lure of Morgorth’s teachings, and in doing so laid the groundwork for his own destruction.

Antane	Reviewed Chapter: 6 on 7/5/2008
Finished this at last! An interesting way of looking at the Ring. Love the ending, esp. the last sentence. I wonder if the Ring brought out in a person whatever was strongest in them as Gandalf seems to suggest in that it knew he would want to heal the hurts of the world and if that is so, then when it tried to corrupt Sam, it only magnified the incredible love for Frodo already there and in Frodo, the sense of responsibility and love for others he had already had, both to its own doom. Namarie, God bless, Antane :)

Robert	Reviewed Chapter: 6 on 6/18/2008
I'd discount the examples from the Hobbit. We know Bilbo's description of trolls and elves was rather more comic than the true picture Frodo later recorded, in his section of the red book. Therefore, we would expect him to moderate the dwarves' behaviour too, maintaining the same light tone. If the ring had been at work, he probably wouldn't have mentioned it. (Or, in story external terms, Tolkien changed the rules between the Hobbit and its sequel, invalidating comparisons.) Tom and suprisingly Shelob give the biggest clues to the ring's appeal. It has no power over Tom because he has no desire for mastery, not even for good. Gandalf, and the Valar, desire to steer events to good ends through moral means. To achieve those ends they need a measure of power, and so must desire it, not for itself but for what they can do with it - and through this small chink the ring can tempt then. Tom, on the other hand, does not desire to do anything whatsoever, merely to be. In his soul, the ring can find no purchase. Shelob likewise has no interest in the ring, though she is a creature of purest malice who came within inches of it. This is because she too has no interest in power over others, for good or ill. She, like Morgoth, is a pure nihilist, desiring only to devour all creation. The ring, which is fundamentally constructive, though in a warped way, cannot serve her passion for destruction, and so she passes it by. In this, Shelob was more evil than Sauron, even at his nadir. As Tolkien said, Sauron's ultimate intent was always constructive. He wanted to make Middle Earth a Utopia, but he did not make allowance for free will. Instead, under Morgoth's influence, he tried to force everyone to follow his dictats for their own good. He put off his utopian plans to the distant future, and concentrated on gaining the power he needed to force people to comply. However, he never embraced Morgoth's nihilistic madness. He desired power to rule, not to destroy, and so his ring was not a tool of destruction but of construction (albeit of tyrannies). Over those with no desire to build, such as Tom and Shelob, it had no power. Incidentally, several ages later, Saruman fell into the exact same trap. His speech to Gandalf at Isenguard - the one about tolerating undesirable company to gain the power to order middle earth for the greater good - is probably an echo of the lies with which Morgoth had seduced Sauron long ago. It's also as close as we'll ever get to Sauron's own manifesto. Author Reply: You make some excellent points here. As far as The Hobbit goes, you are quite correct that JRRT "changed the rules", and that "story-externally" the Ring in The Hobbit, in spite of later edits really is not quite the same as the Ring in LotR (a point you make with trolls and Elves very well, also.) LotR was not even a gleam in JRRT's eye when he wrote The Hobbit. 8-) However, one of the things I am fascinated with is a "story-internal" explanation of such inconsistencies: in other words, JRRT gives us a contradiction, yet it is canon, so what would be an explanation inside the structure of the story (accepting that what JRRT said happened, happened) for that seeming contradiction? So to construct a "story-internal" explanation, I have to consider The Hobbit. My own story-internal explanation for many of those inconsistencies is that Bilbo "toned down" the seriousness of his adventure for the younger hobbits to whom he told the story. There could perhaps be other story-internal reasons for the differences. It is the story-internal dynamic that drives my own fanfiction, as I try to figure these things out within the context of the story. And story-internally, Bilbo's interactions with the Ring and with Gollum are extraordinary, and show him to be a person of remarkable compassion and humility. You make a very good point about Tom and Shelob. Tom was, perhaps, not a good example--he was obviously not mortal, so the rules about invisibility would not have affected him, even if he had been the sort of creature to whom power would appeal. Still, from Frodo's perspective that was something that disturbed him. I may need to rethink my use of Tom, though clearly I would still need to address his interaction with the Ring. And you are absolutely 100% correct about Shelob, something with which I completely agree, and so did not take her into consideration in the essay. And I like very much the comparison of Sauron to Saruman, and their difference to Morgoth. Morgoth wanted to destroy all of creation because his "contribution" to it was "rejected"--(his perception, of course, not Eru's intent) while Sauron--and Saruman--simply wanted the power to rule over it, and order it all to their own ideas. Thank you so much for your insightful comments!

Kitty	Reviewed Chapter: 6 on 6/5/2008
Sorry for being so late in reviewing! Dreamflower, this is a great and interesting essay! I had already thought it obvious that the Ring did work best with those who had a bad character to begin with - like Gollum - and was very slow to make any impression on others, and even here mainly these who desired power for good purposes. But I never followed through on this train of thought far enough to question the power of the One Ring, merely thought how much better the others were able to fight off his attempts to take them. But it makes sense. And somehow it is very comforting to think that this nasty thing was not as successful as it believed :P Author Reply: No need to apologize, dear! I'm always glad to get comments whenever its convenient! I began to think on this when the movies came out and PJ made the Ring so much more powerful, even showing it tempting Aragorn and Faramir, and making it so that Frodo could only resist it if Sam grabbed him by the hand!! And then I read a fic about Boromir, and it talked about how he had actually thrown off the Ring's temptation before the end...and I started to wonder. Of course, it was beginning to make an impression on Bilbo--his restlessness and "feeling thin and stretched" were obviously Ring-induced! But he'd had it for fifty years, and made use of it! And still, it had taken that long? And Bilbo's reaction? Not to claim it, but to get rid of it! (Though he did need Gandalf's help for that--and at that time, they still did not know it was the One.) And then I looked at Gandalf's, Galadriel's and Faramir's rejection of the Ring, and started to get a clue... That's not to say, the Ring was not mighty and powerful still. Just not as powerful as some would have it! But I certainly would not want to be tested by it!

Larner	Reviewed Chapter: 6 on 5/30/2008
Excellent review of the Ring's limitations, Dreamflower. I've often felt, however, that there was at least one more who was tempted and corrupted by the Ring, although he appears to have remained ignorant of Its very existence, and that is Lotho. The desire to dominate of a born bully in him has become distorted beyond what has ever been seen before among Hobbits, and he convinces himself that once he becomes Master of Bag End and, he thinks, the Hill, he then can become Master of the Shire as well. This illusion is stoked by Saruman via his agents as well, probably, by those within the Shire who share his resentment of true leadership abilities apparently demonstrated by Frodo and the perceived power of Master and Thain. That neither the Thain nor the Master has ever apparently sought to capitalize on their inherited positions must have rankled such folks as your Hyacinth or my Timono Bracegirdle; Lotho appears to have fantasized for a long time what he would do once he becomes "The Baggins of Bag End," and immediately begins trying to turn the Shire upside down. He's going to force modernization by replacing the environmentally friendly water-driven mills with steam-powered ones; he's going to enforce sobriety by closing the inns; he's going to become the one dispenser of life by authorizing "gathering and sharing" and making arbitrary rules about how much wood can be burned in a day, who can live where, who can travel when and how, how much food is available. If he cannot command love, he will at least command what he sees as respect, although what he truly commands is mere fear of retaliation. Your Bankses and my more negative Bracegirdles are in many ways far more aware of how flawed Lotho's plans and concepts are from the start, although they, too, fall into the trap of thinking that once others are forced to follow the "Rules" through intimidation they can be induced to remain intimidated indefinitely. That is simply untrue; and like all dictatorial governments it sows the seeds of its own destruction. Once you've lost all, there comes the point when there's simply insufficient the government can continue to take away to keep control. I already live in poverty; I have nothing left to lose; at least through counter-actions I have the chance to make things better for me and mine; given the chance and encouragement I WILL act. Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin return, and they see the absurdity outright; they reduce the "arresting" Shiriffs to a troop of foolish-looking souls who can't even keep up with them. Instead of dragging these four returnees before "The Chief" or "The Boss," they are made to look as if they are in the charge of those they are supposed to be indimidating. "Who's arresting who?" asks the amused old gaffer, watching them; and when a few try to break away to take the scoffer to the Lockholes in retaliation for his ability to see the "Emperor has no clothes on" Frodo merely orders their leader to order them back into line. Obviously the Travellers grant the Shiriffs no authority over them, and so their power to intimidate crumbles right away. Similarly with the ruffians--they find that when sufficiently roused these formerly confused Boffins and Gravellies and Tunnelies and such are willing to stand up to them and to fight back, and their power also crumbles; and then they find themselves facing a level of power they are helpless against--instead of ordering retaliation, Frodo commands mercy shown those who admit they've been beaten. This is a form of strength they cannot begin to appreciate, for Frodo sees them in terms of being people, not in terms of being good or bad, allies or enemies. Each is reduced to being someone who needs cherishing--yet they're not allowed to remain where they are, and are sent packing--but only after they've been given fair treatment. One wonders how many of them might know changes of heart after such treatment? And once again I find myself seeking to rival you in spouting my own appreciation of the philosophy behind Tolkien's works. Please forgive me. Author Reply: It's quite possible that Lotho (and his parents) might have been influenced by the proximity of the Ring to them--but of course, for it to affect them that way, they would have to have been flawed with the kind of greed that led Gollum to fall prey so easily. And I tend to agree that it sounds more than plausible. But I didn't speculate on that, since there isn't any canon evidence to point to one way or the other. And you are also quite right in the way that the returning Travellers handled the situation. Having been among those who had a right to rule, the four returning hobbits would not sit still for those who were merely pretenders and interlopers. Oh, I love to listen to other people spout off about JRRT and Middle-earth and hobbits--after all, they listen to me spouting off, often enough, LOL!

eiluj	Reviewed Chapter: 6 on 5/30/2008
Well done. Re. Tom Bombadil, I think I read somewhere the theory that those who were powerful enough to control the Ring could understand and control its invisibility function. Sauron wasn't invisible when wearing the Ring. Which brings up the question of why Sauron put that power in the Ring in the first place. At the time he made the Ring, he still had control over his shape and appearance -- though he surely knew of other evil Maiar who'd lost the ability to take a pleasing shape, or who were stuck in one shape. Was the Ring's invisibility function to give him an extra margin of safety in case the time came when he could no longer control his appearance? Then there's the RPG theory: the Ring's invisibility, like the disappearing Tengwar, was another way of disguising its importance. To someone who found it but couldn't sense its magic, it appeared a normal golden ring. To someone who knew enough to sense its magic, the invisibility provided an explanation of why it radiated magic. [Apologies if this is too incoherent.] Psst: in the third paragraph, I think you mean Celebrimbor rather than Celeborn. Author Reply: I believe that actually,the invisibility was a side-effect on mortals of any of the Great Rings, much like the longevity. Rats! I can't find the quote anymore...sigh But since technically Tom wasn't a mortal, it wouldn't have had the same effect. However, Frodo wasn't to know that--and I'm not sure the Ring would have sensed it, either. However, in case I'm wrong, I think your theories are quite plausible. And thanks--yes, it should be Celebrimbor. facepalm I am afraid to go in and change it, lest it mess up the formatting. But I guess I'd better. Author Reply: Fixed Celebrimbor--the only thing it messed up was the italics on the Ring inscription at the beginning. I don't think I'll push my luck...

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