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Dreamflower's Musings by Dreamflower	21 Review(s)
Larner	Reviewed Chapter: 1 on 11/11/2005
This is becoming a discussion board! I, like Lindelea, took Bilbo's headship for the Bagginses from the family tree, and also saw how Otho was next in line, and assumed that part of the reason for Otho wanting Bag End was to at least have the trappings of being Family Head for the Bagginses--didn't realize he was the one for the Sackvilles, also, but then haven't read all of Letters yet. As for the other three also having lesser forms of PTSD--to me that was a given. How can anyone go through Black Breath twice, and a horrible version the second time; or looking at the Palantir and finding himself face to face with Sauron's very soul, then the horrors of the Black Gate; or watch the one he loves most of all he knows as parent-brother-child all at the same time go through what Frodo went through, then through the horrors of Cirith Ungol and the search through the tower, and finally the trek across Mordor and the last moments of horror over the cracks themselves, and then thinking they are at last dead--how could they NOT know bad dreams at the very least? I don't write in anniversary illnesses for anyone but Frodo, but do indicate some triggers for Merry's hand going numb--such as mention of the Nazgul. I find support for this in canon in the fact that although Frodo chooses to live in the heart of the Shire with the Cottons, he gives the house at Crickhollow to Merry and Pippin. That these two would discover how changed they were and how disruptive it was to live at home with the memories coming back also seemed logical. Away from others they could become lordly sorts and hide the worst of their memories behind fair seemings and fine parties; in the Great Smials or Brandy Hall they could wake the entire place with cries at their nightmares and be driven to terror at the idea that in the worst of one someone they love might try to waken them and get run through for their efforts. Sam would have the easiest time, I thought, putting all that in its place. For Merry and Pippin--they needed a place to sort out their memories and reaccustom themselves to normal life. I even have Pippin voice these fears in The Choice of Healing. So, anyway, here's more of my two cents' worth. (Actually I suspect I'm up to at least six bits now, don't you agree?) Author Reply: Otho married the eldest daughter of the last of the Sackvilles, and added the name to his own at her family's request, so that the name would not die out, making him the family head, according to Letter #214. He was ambitious to be the first hobbit to be the head of two families at once. Oh, I thoroughly agree with your reasoning as to the others having PTSD; all of the reasons you give are not only valid, but probable. I also agree with your reasons for Frodo giving his cousins Crickhollow. He did that in my second story, in fact--"When the King Comes Back (Brandy Hall)" and used precisely that reason to sway Paladin: did Paladin want the gossip that would occur when his son woke up shrieking in terror night after night? But aside from the mere action of his doing so, canon does not really shed any light on it. And to my way of thinking, story-internally, this is because Frodo, who wrote the Red Book, was exhibiting another symptom of PTSD: detachment, and minimizing the distress in the way he wrote it out. Feel free to put in as many bits, cents, farthings or groats as you want to, dear. I'm having good fun here.

Inkling	Reviewed Chapter: 1 on 11/11/2005
Oh, what fun! And interesting, too… I couldn’t agree more—while there’s a place for fanon, it should always proceed from a thorough knowledge of canon. I have seen that point made before in discussions of AU fics…that they should always be written with a clear understanding of where they depart from canon. And as for things that could be true, as they are not actually contradicted by canon, I have my own name for that: “speculative canon.” Not sure I have something intelligent to contribute about every fanon you mention, but I did have an observation about the first one. I fully agree with your reasoning, and in fact have portrayed Saradoc and Esmeralda (and Merry) as playing the roles in young Frodo’s life that you suggest. I like your solution of Drogo leaving a will (what story is that in?). My own solution was to postulate that, while Rory would have been Frodo’s “official” guardian, to the extent that he had one, Since the accident Saradoc had assumed the role of Frodo’s guardian, Rory having neither the patience nor inclination. So Sara is the “acting” guardian, if not the official one. And as Fantasy Fan raises the question about the Baggins relations, here’s how I have dealt with that, in a discussion of who could take Frodo off the Brandybucks’ hands after he got in even more trouble than usual: “Mad Baggins? Hardly a fit guardian for a rascal like Frodo. He needs someone with a firm hand and a watchful eye to keep him in line.” “Perhaps Drogo’s brother Dudo would take him in?” “Nay, Dudo has worries enough what with Daisy chasing around after Griffo Boffin and every other handsome rogue in the Westfarthing. If he wants my advice I’d marry off that one posthaste and not wait till she comes of age! Nay, I’m going to write to Dora Baggins, it’s time she assumed her share of responsibility for the lad.” The prospect of the last suggestion being enough to make Frodo decide to run away! Oh, and one small comment on the singing question: while I can’t think of any canon basis for Pippin being a good singer (except perhaps his modest reply to Denethor that you cite), there IS canon evidence for Frodo…in “At the Sign of the Prancing Pony,” we are told that Frodo has a good voice. Thank you for posting this, Dreamflower! Author Reply: Yes, the best AU fics are those that have the most respect for canon, and a good sound foundation there from which to spring. I am really loving this discussion of Frodo's guardianship, and all the variations on a theme that folk have come up with. My account of Drogo's will is in "A Place for Gandalf", which is the story in which Bilbo finally decides to adopt Frodo. Drogo designated Bilbo as Frodo's primary guardian, with Saradoc as his secondary guardian. And both his parents leave him substantial inheritances. My Frodo may be an orphan, but he is by no means penniless. I like your scenario, though, especially that Frodo might run away rather than have to be placed with Aunt Dora, LOL! Yes, it does say that. I think all four of them probably had pleasant voices. But my notion that Pippin's musical talent is more than ordinary (aside from Billy Boyd's lovely voice) is based on his seeming to love singing so much (eg. in the bath at Crickhollow) and usually a love for music accompanies the talent as well. And you are welcome. Thanks for coming by and commenting!

Lindelea	Reviewed Chapter: 1 on 11/11/2005
As to the question of Bilbo's being head of the Bagginses, and whether it is canon or fanon... (waving at FantasyFan) I got this by looking at the family tree, mostly, though I have a vague recollection of reading something somewhere (in JRRT's letters? related to a discussion of the Baggins name dying out, or something?). Looking at the family tree, if the hierarchy goes anything like it does on the Brandybuck (looking at who's Master) family tree or the descent of the title "Thain" amongst the Tooks, it looks as if Bilbo would have the pre-eminent position. Balbo's eldest son was Mungo; his eldest son was Bungo; his son was Bilbo and they are all at the far left of the tree. If Bilbo died without an heir the title of "head" would follow the next branch, one level up, if I'm reading correctly, bypassing Belba who became a Bolger by marriage, on to Longo's descendant, Otho. So far as I can figure, if all of Mungo's descendents died out or ended in female descendants, the title would pass to Ponto's line, and again, if there were no males to carry the title, then it would pass to Largo's line, and Frodo was the end of that line. Though the clan could be a matriarchy by ruling, the "name" passed down through the male line, so far as I can determine. An unmarried female, by definition in that culture, would have no progeny to pass the title on to. And a married female took on the name of her husband. She'd be a matriarch of her husband's clan, but not under her birth name. I don't know if I am expressing myself clearly. My brain is getting more muddled by the moment. So, no statement in "canon" that I can come up with off the top of my head, but deduction. Or is it induction? Low blood sugar does a lot to disrupt concentration, I'm afraid. Got to go find some protein and get the kiddos working on math now that lunch break is over. Author Reply: Wow! Lin! You did this the hard way! I just got it straight from Letters! LOL! This is really turning into a regular discussion! grin

harrowcat	Reviewed Chapter: 1 on 11/11/2005
I found this very interesting Dreamflower. I have, once or twice, commented on the cross-fertilization of ideas between Authors. I enjoy it but, like you, much prefer ideas that have at least some basis in canon. Author Reply: Thank you. I do like the ideas to have a basis in canon, or, at the very least not to contradict canon. I also prefer fanon ideas that do not go "over-the-top", if you know what I mean.

Larner	Reviewed Chapter: 1 on 11/11/2005
Ooh, such a wonderful essay. The idea that Frodo was primarily tied to Esmeralda and Saradoc just seemed logical to me. They are old enough to be seen as authority figures, don't have a child at the time, are young enough to have the stamina to deal with a child (have watched many children born to older parents primarily raised by older siblings because the parents haven't the stamina to go through it yet again!), and were old enough perhaps to be friends with their Aunt Primula and her husband, Primula, after all, being the youngest of Rory's siblings. It would also add to the feeling between Frodo and Merry as being brothers, which would make it more logical Merry would seek to accompany Frodo on any attempt to escape the Shire. I've never felt that Pippin ought to have been relatively sickly as a child, and so, although I love the stories based on that fanon idea, I've not continued that idea in my own stories. However, there needed to be a reason for Frodo not to have developed the relationships he did with Merry, Pippin, Sam, Folco, and Fredegar with those closer to his own age. Why should this one who was fourteen years older than Merry have been closer to Merry than to Reginard Took, or some of the older Brandybucks, most of whom aren't named? So I took Lindelea's idea of Frodo's congestive heart failure and possible heart murmur and set it in MY version of the childhood of Frodo Baggins, the child who from the time of his parents' death is set aside and held from normal teen experiences and relationships due to misinterpretation of a childhood disability that he outgrew. If possession is nine-tenths of the law, the fact that Frodo was there in the Hall at Drogo and Primula's deaths seemed to indicate he'd end up staying primarily there, particularly as Bilbo, even if he were recognized patriarch of the Bagginses, was both a bachelor and seen as one likely to do things impulsively and unexpectedly, as evidenced by his unprecedented trip out of the Shire and the embracing of the image as "Mad Baggins" afterwards. So I have Saradoc, Esmeralda, Roridoc, and Menegilda, supported by the Thain's family and Paladin and Eglantine, overruling Bilbo. And as Bilbo recognizes that in the fragile times just after the deaths of Primula and Drogo Frodo would be negatively affected by any of Lobelia's activities, I have him agreeing, although reserving the right to exercise his options in the long run. The psychic connection is a good one, and certainly one I've exploited a bit, although not as much as some others. I was myself caught from my first reading by the view of Frodo in bed in Rivendell and the vision Gandalf had of Frodo becoming a creature of light in the end; then the vision Sam and Gollum on the stair of Cirith Ungol share of Frodo surrounded by light, and Frodo's vision of Aragorn as King; and so that idea of auras permeates my own works. Pippin did sing a good deal in FOTR particularly, and so I never had an idea of him NOT being musically inclined, although I suspect all Hobbits have some tendencies that way. That Frodo grew up hearing Bilbo's walking songs and so on and wouldn't also do some singing seemed impossible to believe, so I have him also singing sweetly, if not as splendidly as Pippin does. Pippin's greater security running across the rope bridge in Lorien indicated to me that he'd have had a better head for heights than the rest; however, sleeping on a wall-less flet would have been less comfortable for any of them, I think, save perhaps for Sam who appears to have slept solidly and without a lot of tossing about. He's the most comfortable with the idea of sleeping on the flet, but most terrified and least competent at the rope walk. Therefore I tend to picture Pippin as a restless sleeper, but comfortable with heights. As for Hobbit piles--they make a nice image. Hope you don't mind my OWN essay I seem to be contributing. Author Reply: Not at all. You have touched on a number of my own reasons for going along with the Saradoc/Esmeralda guardianship. And so far, I seem to be alone in the idea that Drogo would have already had a will. Nevertheless, I am fascinated by some of the less familiar scenarios others come up with. I am currently working on an essay about Frodo's relationship with the other three hobbits, but it's not nearly finished yet. That's also a good point about Pippin's and Sam's sleep patterns. (Remember how much sounder than the others Sam slept in the house of Bombadil?) And about the heights in general. Hobbit piles are a nice image, and I think that's why so many have adopted it. It seems to be a favorite meme of most hobbit writers, in spite of being basically entirely fanon. And, no, not at all. I am loving all these various ideas!

FantasyFan	Reviewed Chapter: 1 on 11/11/2005
My comments addressed what I thought about legal guardianship, but it is definitely canon that Frodo's best friends were Merry, Pippin, Freddy and Folco. It is a fact that his best friends are all considerably younger than he is. Actually, if you look at the family trees, there are relatively few in Frodo's age-bracket (Lotho being a notable exception). Since Frodo moved from Buckland to Hobbiton when he was 21, it is a likely extrapolation that such a close relationship at least with Merry has a basis in the time he lived in Buckland. Perhaps, as one of the few convenient teens in residence, he was pressed into service as a babysitter by Sara and Esme. In any case, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to postulate that there must have been a relationship with Merry's family, even if it wasn't a legal one. After all, Brandy Hall is described as "a regular warren" and Frodo "being brought up anyhow" by no less of an unbiased authority as the Gaffer; family relationships must be relatively loose. And something had to inspire the fierce loyalty of the Conspirators. I like the idea of Bilbo abhorring the thought that the Sackville-Bagginses would get Frodo if he himself was judged unsuitable and a Baggins claim was to be pressed. But is it canon that Bilbo was the head of the Baggins family at that time (or ever, for that matter)? Author Reply: It is an interesting facet about Frodo's age and his friendships. I'm working on another essay entirely on the relationships of the four Travellers, so I hope to get lots of input on that. It is what may be called "quasi-canon" or "semi-canon" in that the idea comes from JRRT himself, rather than fanfic. In his famous "Letter #214" he says that Bilbo became the head of the Bagginses at the age of 44, when his mother Belladonna died. One of the reasons for Otho's ambitions in trying to get hold of Bag End was to facilitate his ambition become head of both the Sackville clan, which he held through his mother, and the Baggins clan, which he could have taken on becoming Bilbo's heir. Author Reply: Lindelea just posted something else on this subject drawn entirely from the family trees!

Lindelea	Reviewed Chapter: 1 on 11/11/2005
After reading FantasyFan's fascinating comments, and your thoughtful reply I thought I'd add my own .02. I think I come down partway between, at least so far as I'd thought it through. I saw Bilbo, as the head of the Baggins clan, as very likely taking a large part in the discussion following the death of Frodo's parents. Probably if he had not had the deciding vote, the lad would have gone to one of the Baggins families. Setting aside the close blood-ties of Dudo and Drogo for a moment, for whatever reason--and it might be a formal one, in a society, as you mentioned, that had the formality of-seven-witnesses-in-red-ink--and regretfully setting aside the picture of an elderly unmarried aunt raising a young and rambunctious lad (Tom Sawyer, anyone...?) If status goes hand-in-hand with responsibility, and Bilbo was considered by the dictates of society "unsuitable" because he was unmarried and older and might not "understand" the needs of a relatively young child, then Otho Sackville-Baggins would be the next logical choice. He is next to Bilbo in status in the Baggins clan (we don't know if Belba and Rudigar had any children, but certainly none appear on the family tree, so they are "out of the picture", so to speak), and he already has a son just a little older that Frodo. Sounds perfect, in theory, until you consider the realities of the situation (i.e. Lobelia...). I can see Bilbo, as head of the family, arguing vehemently that Frodo should stay with his mother's family, no matter what the reputation of the Brandybucks might be, to prevent the lad from going to be raised by the likes of Lobelia. As far as who had guardianship, I agree with you that the responsibility would go to the Master of the Hall, but I envisioned, rather than neglect, a sort of scenario where "too many cooks spoil the broth". Everyone is putting his or her oar in, and so the boat is not going anywhere. And of course, with so many "guardians" there is also the possibility that people were assuming that other people were watching the lad, and quite a good reason for Frodo to become one of the worst rascals in Buckland in rebellion against all the pressure of being pulled in different directions. (My mind is not quite so clear, yet, on the practicalities, but i have been trying to work out something that makes sense to me for my "bilbo adopts frodo" story.) But I do see Saradoc and Esmeralda speaking for the lad, and having a soft spot for him, and having a fair amount of influence in his life. Perhaps they don't fuss over him, but just let him be himself. In any event, there must be some reason that he and Merry are so close, and so I've postulated that it comes of Merry having such loving and sensible parents, who had love to spare for Frodo. As to young married couples without children--I was very close to a cousin and spent a fair amount of time with her and her husband when they were young marrieds. They had a great deal of influence over my life, and so I can see Frodo in a similar situation with Saradoc and Esmeralda. Whew! Practically an essay here. Hope you don't mind. Author Reply: What fun I'm having with the comments on this! This is so cool! As far as who had guardianship, I agree with you that the responsibility would go to the Master of the Hall, but I envisioned, rather than neglect, a sort of scenario where "too many cooks spoil the broth". Everyone is putting his or her oar in, and so the boat is not going anywhere. And of course, with so many "guardians" there is also the possibility that people were assuming that other people were watching the lad, and quite a good reason for Frodo to become one of the worst rascals in Buckland in rebellion against all the pressure of being pulled in different directions Again, something of my idea. As I said, my Drogo left a will. So of course his wishes held sway. But I do see the thing of young Saradoc and Esmeralda being swamped with conflicting advice for how to deal with this particularly difficult grieving child, and a good deal of possibly unwanted interference as well. And for my Frodo, there is also the fact that his foster parents are aware of his occasional suicidal tendencies when his depression is at its worst,so almost all the adults in Brandy Hall try to keep him under constant surveillance, which chafes him, as he doesn't realize they know of his darker thoughts. So he does everything he can think of to slip the leash. By the way, I love the scenario you have constructed there: I'd love to read that in a fic as well--the efforts to keep poor little Frodo out of Lobelia's and Otho's clutches! That would be awesome! And see what people can come up with when they play their own tune and don't always follow the memes?

Lindelea	Reviewed Chapter: 1 on 11/11/2005
Good stuff. What do you think of the notion that Brandybucks in general and Merry in particular are seriously bothered by heights? Author Reply: You mean, more than the average hobbit? LOL! It's rather the flip side of Tooks liking to climb trees, I suppose, and has more canon evidence to back it in the general hobbit phobia about heights than the former notion. It is fanon, of course, but grounded in canon. However, as you know it's a meme that I like and have made use of for my Merry. I think in stories it makes rather a balance: here is something he fears that Pippin does not. And of course, Brandybucks already have an advantage in not fearing the River or boats. It also gives a bit more depth to Merry as a character, and certainly makes a number of plot bunnies happy. grin

Bodkin	Reviewed Chapter: 1 on 11/11/2005
Is there any evidence that Pippin was premature / very sickly and spent masses of his childhood being ill? Or is that fanon? Author Reply: That question popped up on LJ as well. As far as I know, it is strictly fanon--the only canon thing at all is that Pippin was considered small. And as he was youngest, that's not entirely illogical anyway. It doesn't have to be caused by prematurity. However, it's a very useful bit of fanon, and one I have incorporated myself. It's so pervasive that I can't determine just who was first responsible for it.

Antane	Reviewed Chapter: 1 on 11/11/2005
This is very good! The books and movies are marvelous but it's the fans that have really deepened my love for the hobbits and enriched my understanding of them esp. Frodo and how great their love for each other. That's there, of course, in the books and movies, esp. between Sam and Frodo, but expanded so much more in stories that the books don't touch on or not much - Frodo's childhood and his love for his cousins and their love for him and how much more comfortable they are sleeping together than apart and all that and how pure and innocent their love is. The books shows the purity just as well and the fans have additionally enriched the characters. This is not to say in any way anything against the professor, we are forever in his debt for discovering these marvelous people and it is a testament to him and them that we are so blessed to have so many other tales of them. Namarie, God bless, Antane :) Author Reply: Fanfiction is indeed a very enriching and exciting way to explore Middle-earth, and the movies, especially visually, have added a good deal of depth as well. I like and have used many fanon notions. However, I like writers to be aware of the difference. If something is written in a fanfic, and then someone else writes a story in which they do not make use of a particular fanon convention, then it is not fair for readers to castigate them for it. Being well grounded in the books helps us to appreciate good fanfic even more.

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