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| A Cat in King Elessar's Court by Agape4Gondor | 13 Review(s) |
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| Fiondil | Reviewed Chapter: 999999 on 4/11/2008 |
| It is a pity that you even have to resort to this, Agape. I suspect most people claiming this is AU are basing it solely on movie!Denethor and not on Tolkien's depiction of him. And you are correct that PJ's Denethor isn't Tolkien's. How many people, having never read the books or even glanced at the Tale of Years would guess, just from watching the movies, that Denethor, who is of Númenórëan descent same as Aragorn, though of a less noble degree, is only one year older than Aragorn? I'm sure that Eiluj is correct that Denethor went searching for Frodo through the Palantír on his own once he learned of the Hobbit's existence, but the image of what he found coupled with what Sauron shows him later (the Black Fleet) on top of the news that Théoden might NOT be able to reach Minas Tirith was enough to drag him down into a spiral of despair that merely deepened when Faramir returned more dead than alive. The thought that he had lost both his sons on top of everything else, I suspect, was the proverbial straw. Denethor was not insane, merely driven into a state of despair so deep (and partly through his own arrogance, I fear) that he could not listen to reason and saw no hope. Those who depict Denethor as abusive and violent are the one's writing AU. Maybe if they actually bothered to read the book.... Author Reply: Because others don't agree usually doesn't bother me. However, I have spent so much time researching Denethor... for this tale and others... that I really had to put my foot down and say - Listen, this is not an AU. When I write an AU, I proclaim it. The odd thing about all this (sans the part about Denethor not loving Faramir which I think is hogwash) is that Denethor had the right to go to the House of the Stewards and lay down and say, 'this is it. I've chosen my time to die.' It's one of the gifts of the Valar to those of Numenor. So the argument that he is committing suicide isn't true. He would have lain on that table until his spirit left him... That he chose to not wait for the 'long slow death' was his choice also. I don't think anywhere it said how they could end their lives. The problem with this was that he chose for Faramir - and he had no right to do that.... I wrote to eiluj about Frodo and the Palantir below... I definitely think that Denethor, knowing from Faramir's account which way the Hobbit was headed, would have tried to find him!!! Thanks ever so much for your support! Now to continue the tale... and you will be happy to see that the next chapter is rather long - for this tale (tail). :-) | |
| irene | Reviewed Chapter: 999999 on 4/11/2008 |
| You are absolutely right! And a good thing you stated all the facts here for those who think Peter Jackson to be the author of LOTR. His movie, sadly, is very much AU... Author Reply: As most movies do not follow the books they are taken from - we have to just grin and bear it. The movies were spectacular and mostly great... mostly... Unfortunately, PJ did much damage, IMHO, to the characters... Denethor being only one destroyed by this movie for those who have never read the books. Thanks for your comments! Most appreciated! | |
| eiluj | Reviewed Chapter: 999999 on 4/11/2008 |
| I've been known to play canon police (though generally not at this site), and I have to say *I* never considered this fic AU -- even the talking cat! (And not merely because I'm a cat person: I think a cat such as Alqualondë has to be considered as falling within the realm of canon, inasmuch as his ancestors are mentioned in LotR.) '"The fool's hope has failed. The Enemy has found it, and now his power waxes; he sees our very thoughts, and all we do is ruinous.” 'This is what pushes Denethor over the edge – he has seen that Frodo is naked in Cirith Ungol – which means that Sauron (in his mind’s eye) has the Ring; he has seen that the Black Ships are coming up the Anduin… and then Ingold tells him that the road from Rohan has been blocked by a new enemy and Théoden will NOT be able to get through to Minas Tirith. All is lost… and the Palantír verifies and corroborates that.' -- I’ve always been under the impression that it was Sauron who showed the Black Ships to Denethor to drive him to despair. But if Denethor saw Frodo in the palantír, that must have been on his own, and *not* through Sauron. Sauron didn't know at that point that the orcs had captured Frodo (there hadn't been time for Shagrat to reach Barad-dûr with Frodo’s clothing) -- and certainly Sauron never suspected the Ring was within Mordor). So if Denethor had seen Frodo in Cirith Ungol, it would have to have been because he was looking for Frodo on his own initiative. So I’m wondering if there’s anything in Tolkien’s letters (or anywhere else I either haven’t read or don’t remember!) on this subject, or if it’s just your interpretation. ‘By the way, Peter Jackson’s Denethor is NOT Tolkien’s’ -- I love the films. But you are absolutely correct. [And PJ’s Faramir ... and PJ’s Aragorn ... and PJ’s Elrond ... and PJ’s Arwen ... and PJ’s Théoden....] Write on! Author Reply: Hello eiluj.... I've read and re-read and discussed and then re-read another twenty times these chapters.... I have come to the conclusion - perhaps wrong - that Denethor's curiosity - no, need - to know everything he could - caused his dabbling (obsession) with the Palantir.... So - with that in mind, it would seem to me that he would have searched Ithilien for the creatures that Faramir let go against Denethor's law/wishes. Therefore, I think he would have eventually 'found' Frodo. And made the 'wrong' conclusion! I don't think that Sauron controlled all of Denethor's movements with the Palantir. Yes, Sauron showed him the Black Ships, but I think Denethor saw other things that Sauron didn't show him. The stone did NOT control Denethor. Nor did Sauron. I know, from the book, that at the beginning his use went unnoticed by Sauron... The books says Denethor was never 'taken' by Sauron the way Saruman was... I also - though this has nothing to do with the Cat - think that he would have researched the scrolls that Mithrandir 'used' in 3017-3018. This is pure conjecture - but if the man would risk so much by using the Palantir to acquire knowledge - wouldn't he just take a stroll down to the archives and open the scrolls Gandalf did? Seems quite sane to me. Oh well - enough of that - I think 'canon' police are necessary for those who care about their stories being canon. I do. I apprecite anyone who brings something to my attention that might not be canon... however, as I've said in a previous post... interpretation is ambiguous. What I interpret from what I've read might be entirely different from what you interpret... but if it's in black and white that Denethor hated Faramir and wished him dead - then I'd not write otherwise... HOWEVER - no where does it say this. From my reading, I sense a great love for Faramir (from the hand-holding in the high chamber as Faramir lies near death)... estrangement was definitely there - but not to the point that neither spoke to each other. Also, when Faramir almost collapses during his interview with Denethor/Gandalf... Denethor shows true concern. This, IMHO, is only one of many instances that show Denethor was a loving, albeit stern, harsh father. Oh, I could talk about this for days.... Forgive me. Thanks for the comments! Most appreciated! | |